Expand Your Comfort Zone

Staying in your comfort zone may feel safe, but it can also prevent growth, innovation, and meaningful success.

Today, we explore what happens when you take bold steps beyond the familiar. From shifting professional identity to starting a business from scratch, we unpack how discomfort can be a catalyst for clarity, creativity, and leadership. You’ll hear how embracing uncertainty, experimenting with new methods, and leaning into risk can unlock unexpected potential for you and your business.

Our guest is a former Managing Partner with over two decades in legal practice, who now helps law firms and leaders evolve through strategic coaching, leadership development, and innovative tools like LEGO® Serious Play®. We’re delighted to have Katie da Gama, Executive Coach and Founder of Senatum Ltd, https://katiedagama.ie/

TRANSCRIPTION

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription of this podcast.

Larissa Feeney  0:00

Today, we are meeting an entrepreneur who left a high powered legal career to build a business rooted in creativity, leadership and personal growth.

Katie da Gama  0:09

It might be outside your comfort zone and it might scare you, but do you know what happens? Quite often you go outside that comfort zone, you practice, you experiment, you fail. Absolutely! You fall down, you get up, and then magically, your comfort zone has expanded.

Intro  0:24

No unicorns, no brands, just hard-working people who built their business from the ground up, sharing their experience so others can learn. Presented by Larissa Feeney from Kinore, this is Real Business Conversations.

Larissa Feeney  0:43

Hello. My name is Larissa Feeney and I am CEO and founder of Kinore Finance and Business Services. Expanding your comfort zone isn’t just a mindset, it’s a business strategy and today we’ll explore how stepping beyond the familiar can lead to unexpected and fulfilling career paths, we’ll talk about building a business from the ground up, navigating identity shifts, embracing creativity and leadership and the challenges and rewards of entrepreneurship. Our guest is a former managing partner with over 20 years in legal practice who now works with law firms and legal leaders on growth, leadership and strategic development. It’s a pleasure to welcome executive coach and founder of Senatum Ltd, Katie de Gama.

Katie da Gama  1:26

Hi Larissa, thank you for that lovely introduction. Appreciate that.

Larissa Feeney  1:35

Well, let’s start at the beginning. Maybe tell us, because you are a lawyer, so maybe tell us a little bit about that, about what took you in that direction in the first place?

Katie da Gama  1:42

Yeah, lovely, and it’s something I think about quite often. I didn’t have a burning desire to be a lawyer when I was growing up, no lawyers in my family or extended family, and so like a lot of people, I fell into law having been advised to do law at university, because it would be a broad subject base and a good foundation for a career. So like a lot of people, enjoyed doing law at university and got onto that system, I suppose, so had a lot of exposure to lawyers, started to think about my career, and firstly, trained as a barrister in the UK and practiced as a barrister over in there, in some unusual and interesting circumstances which we might go into at some stage. But certainly a good grounding, a really good foundation for challenges that I might face later in my career, although I didn’t know it then. And yeah, lots of connections, lots of people, lots of finding out what it was that I enjoyed and how to go about doing more of that. And eventually moved into being a solicitor, both in the UK, and then moved over to Ireland in Gosh, 2000 Yeah, 2004

Larissa Feeney  2:56

and are you originally from Ireland?

Katie da Gama  2:57

No, I’m married to an Irishman. So I met a met an Irish man in London. We were together in London for a while, and then, yeah, he convinced me to move into his neck of the woods. So over to Dublin. We came in 2004 and never looked

Larissa Feeney  3:11

back. So did you qualify? Then? Did you have to do like a qualification in Ireland as well?

Katie da Gama  3:16

Yes, I had to take the QL, tt, which is the qualified lawyers transfer test just to transfer or translate, I suppose, the experience and the qualifications I had into Irish law. So yeah, I did that in 2004 as well,

Larissa Feeney  3:31

and at this stage you were working in a law practice. Yes,

Katie da Gama  3:36

I was very privileged to get a job. My first job was in Matheson, or as it was then called Matheson ormsbury apprentice or mop, and I went in there as a Senior Associate in 2004 and worked my way up there to partner, just in 2007

Larissa Feeney  3:51

Oh, wow. Okay, so you worked up to senior partner. That was quite a quick progression. Wasn’t 2004 2007

Katie da Gama  3:59

Yeah. So I think that the experience I had gained in London was was foundational, actually, and worked across a couple of practices in the UK, and that gave me, I think, just a really good level of experience that translated really well into the Irish market, and I was able to work on some really fantastic matters. I’m a litigator, so I litigated a lot of commercial court claims, and that really gave me a jump start, I think, into my career in Ireland, and, yeah, made it to partner in Matheson in 2007 which was, yeah, phenomenal.

Larissa Feeney  4:35

Okay, well done. And then what happened after that? Yeah, what

Katie da Gama  4:39

did happen after that? So I, I stayed in Matheson for another year. Had my daughter that year, actually, which I think, you know, like a lot of people, those those moments in our life are pivotal. So I had my first daughter in 2007 she’s so she’s 18, actually, this week, this weekend, she turns 18. So it’s a big, a big time in our household. Had my daughter. Went, went on maternity leave, took some maternity leave, came back and practiced, continued to practice as a partner in Matheson with a fantastic team, and I was called one day that that was the coincidence that I think started a lot of things. I was called one day by another practitioner in the UK who said, we’re thinking of starting up a practice from scratch in Ireland, and we’d love to talk to you about it. And one thing led to another, and a year later, I set up the what is now dac beechcroft, but what was then Beech Croft, and I set that up, as I often say, from my from my kitchen table, because we didn’t have an office at that stage. So a lot of trying to find space to work, trying to find our niche, trying to work out who it was we needed to be connected to. And it just gave me such a privileged access to how to start a business, but with lots and lots of team support, lots of practical experience back in the you know, in the in the home business in the UK, but with, yeah, a lot of trust in me, actually, to grow the business in Ireland. And I’ve taken that with me ever since

Larissa Feeney  6:09

Katie like that call. Why? How do they find you? Why you? Why did they pick up the phone to you? Yeah.

Katie da Gama  6:18

So I had, like, a lot of lawyers in lots of different practices, we work with other law firms when we share clients, and maybe there’s some cross border work or international work. And I had made a connection with this particular lawyer in some of the claims, some of the matters that I had done. We had established a trust, as, you know, working partners, and you know, when she was thinking of expanding, or their firm was thinking of expanding, and she had some names in mind. I was one of the people she picked up the phone to. And what has become one of my mantras, although sounds pretty strange now, is, you know, if someone asked me to do something, I tend to say yes, and then think about how to do it later, rather than, which is, which is an unusual trait, I think, in lawyers, rather than think, I’m not sure I have the skills to do that. I’m not sure I have everything I need to equip myself. I said, Yes, pretty quickly, actually. And and said, right, I’ll work out how to do it with lots of good people around me and lots of practical advice from people who knew better than I did, and I have definitely never looked back.

Larissa Feeney  7:24

And I think what our listeners actually will be thinking whenever they listen to this is, you know, why did you say yes? Because that you were a senior partner in a well known and well respected law firm and doing incredibly well, and had climbed the ladder very, very quickly, and you were taking the leaps. And I know it wasn’t the first leap in your career, or it wasn’t the last leap in your career, but you were taking a leap, and that was a big one. What attracted you to it?

Katie da Gama  7:51

Yeah, I do, you know, I actually don’t know the straight answer to that, but I can tell you the thought process, which was, I felt as if I could go back to where I not necessarily to Matheson, but to another law firm, if I took the leap, and it didn’t go brilliantly, on the basis that, you know, I was pushing myself outside of my boundaries, my comfort zone, and that would be seen as a good thing to do, that it would be seen as a courageous step, and that, you know, I was starting a business, so if it didn’t go well, for whatever reason, I had a belief, and I can’t even tell you if it was a real belief, that if it didn’t go so well, I was still a lawyer. I still had all my practicing experience. I still had a practicing certificate, and I held a belief that I could go and interview for other jobs in other law firms and say, Yeah, I tried something, and I made great connections. For whatever reason, it didn’t work, but, but I stepped out there and I did it. Now I didn’t have to do that, because really, really fortunately, we were successful fairly quickly. But that was the belief I held onto, that I had built a skill set and that I had capabilities, and that they would stay with me, and that even if it failed, or even if it didn’t quite work out the way I wanted to, I could still say I did it, and that that shows courage and strength and the ability to step outside a small comfort zone and get bigger? Yeah,

Larissa Feeney  9:24

I think that’s a really great answer, because what you’re essentially saying is you understood, you kind you thought, what’s the worst that can happen here? And you were okay with that, so you mitigated the risk in your own head. You know, you weren’t taking the leap. And you know, you know, betting on the family silver as such. You knew that if it didn’t work out, you could still get a job. You were still a lawyer. You know, nobody could take that away from you. But then you went on to grow that particular law firm quite large, didn’t you? Yeah,

Katie da Gama  9:53

and you know, I look back on that period of my life as just such a wonderful experience. Experience hard work, absolutely, lots and lots of failings along the way, most definitely and lots of things I would do differently if I were to go back to that now. But what a privilege. I mean, people, connections, you know, law, lots of exciting practice areas and just something that I could take for not for myself, in terms of me having it as my own. It was very much a team effort, but something that I could lead, something that I could envision for the future and see what it could be and how it could be grown, and then doing it, you know, the sort of sense of, okay, this is in my control. There are lots of things outside of my control, and that’s something I certainly work with with my clients nowadays. But actually, what’s in my control? I can have the conversations. I can go and have the coffee with that client. I can pick up the phone, I can send that email. Is it uncomfortable? Absolutely. Sometimes. Is it? Is it, you know, does it not always work out absolutely, but I had that sense of, I know what it takes to be a good lawyer, but do I have what it takes to be a good business person? And I absolutely learned those skills along the way, and you know what? I’m still learning them. I don’t think that ever ends. I would, I would love to, love to think that that lifelong journey of learning how to be not necessarily just successful in business, but to enjoy business and to learn from it and to grow from it. That’s certainly something that keeps me going at the

Larissa Feeney  11:27

moment. But what an amazing opportunity to build skills outside of your core area. Because, you know, setting it up in Ireland, leading the team, that was essentially the role of an entrepreneur. Okay, you were protected in many ways, of course, by the support from the UK, but nevertheless, it probably opened you up to challenges that you never would have been exposed to had you stayed where you were completely

Katie da Gama  11:49

and on some level, I think I had a sense that that would be the case. I didn’t know what it would look like because it was an uncertain step, but I had a sense that as a partner, and I was incredibly fortunate to be a partner in a in a fantastic law firm, I would absolutely have the chance to lead, and absolutely have the chance to be in practice and have great clients and great colleagues. But it wasn’t mine, and I don’t And again, I don’t mean that in a possessive sense, but it wasn’t something that I had more control over it was something that I was, you know, doing, and it was, it was a great skill. Whereas starting that law firm again, as you say, I was hugely grateful to the team around me. I absolutely did not do this in any way on my own. I had some fabulous, fabulous people with whom I’m still connected and but, there was a sense of I could grow it, I could see it, I could lead it, and I could build those skills. And their life skills, actually, a lot of them are real life skills, and something that I’m incredibly grateful for. So

Larissa Feeney  12:57

tell us what happened next then, because that’s really only the start of the story.

Katie da Gama  13:03

Yes, I like to think of my life in chapters. I think, you know, I’m onto it. I’m onto another chapter. So had a fabulous just shy of 10 years. I left just a month before 10 years in that practice. And yeah, I had with a team. I had grown it to where I was really happy that it was thriving. I could see other people thriving in the business, which was really, really important for me. We had a good foothold. We had a good reputation. And, you know, with a lot of things in my life, and certainly a couple of kind of family incidents, if you like. I just thought, you know, what is this the last thing that I want to be doing? And it wasn’t that it was uncomfortable, it wasn’t that it was a bad thing. I just knew there was something else inside me that I wanted to do and to push that entrepreneurial envelope even further. Yes, I had been you know, grateful to grow this. But again, it still wasn’t something that I could say this. This is all, you know, the start from me, it wasn’t just something that I could grow on my own. And I had been involved a lot, actually, in the leadership of the law firm, and on the global board of that law firm, working a lot on the on the people side of the business, which I know is such a strange phrase, because, of course, all business is people, but really on the leadership development side, on the training program side, and on, on, on, really focusing on how we encourage environments that that help people to be empowered and optimized. And you know what, happy? I know that’s a word we don’t often use, but, but people who really cared about what they were doing, and you know that that really intrigued me. So it took me about a year. I’m going to be really honest. Larissa, I really thought about it, and lots of conversations with my husband about, I’m thinking of leaving law and that sort of. Look of what and, you know, thinking, what does that look like? How does that feel? And again, in CRI I recognize the privilege of being able to say, I’m going to do it. It may not work. And again, I’m still a lawyer. I still have, you know, the same experience, or even more experiences I had that time. But I’m going to try it, because I will regret it if I don’t try it. I want to build something that is around people, around leadership, around growth, around strategy. So yeah, so started that process of, I’m going to leave, I’m going to set up on my own again, not not, I’m going to say not 100% knowing what I was going to do, but having some ideas.

Larissa Feeney  15:42

And did you find that the decision, because that’s the second time you’ve made a decision to make a leap. Now this one’s an even bigger leap in many ways. Plus, you were 10 years down the road. It was you were 10 years more experienced. You were 10 years more developed and established in your career. You also had responsibilities in terms of family that you may not have had back then. Did you find the decision harder? Well, you thought about it for a year, so I’m guessing you probably did

Katie da Gama  16:08

much harder, and not necessarily, although I had two, I have two lovely girls, and they were very young at that stage, not necessarily the family responsibilities. Now that you say it actually it was much more around identity. And I speak to a lot of my clients about this, and I don’t know if it’s something that is unique, not unique, but perhaps more in professional services. I don’t know. I really identified with being a lawyer, that that really basic element of being able to at a party or at a room, or, you know, in a conference, and say Hi, my name is Katie. I’m a lawyer in or I practice in, and not being able to say that, and trying to work out what it was I was going to say, I really struggled with that so that so there was a huge identity piece for me, and I’m still not sure how I introduce myself. Sometimes, often I call myself a recovering lawyer, because there’s a huge part of me that is in law, and I’m in law firms nearly every day of the week, and yet I’m doing something different. So yeah, that identity piece I really found challenging. And yes, I was driven by the yes and rather than yes, but so yes and you may struggle with your identity, how else can you present yourself? What else can you do? Where might you find some real energy and joy in what you’re doing? But absolutely a much more challenging decision, and I think sometimes, you know, if I look back, I’m not sure I would do it again. It’s really funny. I think I had the risk appetite then that maybe not actually. That’s not true. I think I would do it again, but, but not just yet. I’m happy where I

Larissa Feeney  17:53

am now. I think a lot of the identity I identify with the other issue that I hear from budding entrepreneurs who would have been in your position of having, you know, you know, relatively well paid role, senior role, you know, well known, well respected in a professional field, is that, you know, the leap of, we know, I’m going from that to what the security, that’s what I’m trying to say, you know, the security. Did you find that a challenge, or were you happy that you had the capability to, you know, replace that income? No,

Katie da Gama  18:28

not at all. And I didn’t. And I want to be really honest, because I’m always honest with my clients about this as well. It’s I didn’t replace that income. I mean, you know, different people have different levels of income, and of course, that’s something that features in a lot of people’s decisions. And for me, it was about getting to a level that made sense for us and our family. And of course, my husband plays a huge part in this as well, and of course, the children. So it was never a feature of, can I directly replace this income? It was about thinking really clearly about, what do we need in life? What are our priorities in life? How do we manage what might be a turbulent time, certainly for the first well two years, and then COVID hit. So I started my business in 2018 so I had two years of trying to build it where it was making nowhere near as much as the income that I had, you know, been privileged to enjoy in my previous roles, and then COVID hit. So a bit of a transition and a reshuffle there, and now I’m at the stage where, again, very privileged, very fortunate, very grateful that I can say that I am at that level where I’m comfortable. It isn’t going to be a complete match, but it’s, it’s what I want, it’s where I want to be in life. And it’s a really, yeah, really, I’m really fortunate to be able to say that

Larissa Feeney  19:57

well done, okay, and I think that’s really important for. Our listeners to hear that you know that every individual is different, and you’ve different reasons for making the decisions that you make. So talk to us then about the business, about what you currently do, what you offer your clients. Yeah,

Katie da Gama  20:13

thank you. So I offer my clients a Listening service quite often I work with some phenomenal individuals, senior lawyers teams, and then firms or in house legal teams, and I work with them on wherever they’re at. So it may be that they would look like to look for stronger leadership skills in a particular area. Maybe it’s leading for growth purposes or leading for diversity, or leading for, you know, any number of strategic decisions that they might be making. And I work with them to, you know, essentially diagnose where they’re currently at, and then that where they would like to get to so they’re as is and where they would like to be. And then design, I call it sometimes an intervention, but that has other connotations. So some sort of program where we go on that journey from where they are to where they’d like to be, and that’s individual. So I work with individuals on their journey, but also in teams and then in the full organizations to achieve those results they’re looking for, which are unique to them. Every single client is different, and that involves a lot of strategic thinking, a lot of growth thinking, a lot of skill set developing. So in leadership, what is it that there is that not necessarily missing factor, but a factor that you really want to enhance, that will have those practical, tangible results that you’re looking to achieve. And then, how do you develop those? How do you embed those? How do you practice those? And how do you find the courage to do that sometimes, because they’re a little bit messy, they are not pure law. It is not right or wrong. It is not this is the answer. That’s the answer. It’s very much. Well, this might work. Let’s experiment. Let’s find out if that works. Let’s have those really honest conversations about, oh, that didn’t feel quite right, or I’m really uncomfortable in this space, and let’s work with that. So it’s again, I know I use the word a lot privilege, but it’s people trust me, and I’m really grateful for people trusting me to explore those areas that they may find uncomfortable, and get to work with them and see phenomenal results because they put in so much effort, which is the you know, the real key to it all.

Larissa Feeney  22:39

You work primarily with law firms or individuals in law firms as they understand it, what was it in your career that helped you identify that there was a need within that sector for your service?

Katie da Gama  22:51

So it’s interesting, Larissa, and I’ve been doing a lot of work on this recently for myself in terms of my own strategy at my own business level. And you know, the easy answer would be to say, Well, I’ve walked in similar shoes to yours. I can never walk in exactly your shoes, but, but I have been a partner, I’ve been a senior associate, I’ve led teams, I’ve led for or I led a firm, and therefore I rely on that as my as my experience. And I think that’s an answer, but it’s not the whole answer. I think the whole, or the or the expanded answer, if you like, is I observe. So I have seen other leaders much better than me, much, much more skillful at what they do than than I have ever been, and I’ve observed them, and I’ve worked with them. I’ve again, been lucky to work with some phenomenal leaders and some phenomenal people, and I can see from working with those clients and also my own practice, what works better than others. Nothing’s perfect. And again, that’s a breakdown I think we need to make sure we get to, which is nothing is ever perfect. But how can you enhance? How can you support? And a lot of the areas that I work in have no clear ways of working, so I work with lawyers to see what works for them, and that’s my experience on the job as well as in the job. So you know, it’s a blend of what I see, what I observe, what I can see, is working, and how I’ve navigated through my own business and through my own practice, is where I see my skill sets intersecting, if you like.

Larissa Feeney  24:31

So you’re bringing the experience that you had, that you gained through your time to your clients. So you’ve decided to have a niche in law, but those skills are obviously transferable to many different industries. Why did you decide on a niche?

Katie da Gama  24:49

And I didn’t right at the start, actually, Larissa, so when I stopped practicing in 2018 I went back to university. Because that sounded in my head, and actually it was the right decision at the time. It sounded as if I needed to, I just needed to get a new qualification. So I was enrolled in the Smurfit business school. I went to the Executive Education Team and looked at business skills that I would need, and ended up doing executive coaching, advanced coaching, and then change in transformation and three phenomenal programs. And I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t give that up for the world. And what I found was, in those first two or three years, so 2018 probably for the first two or three years, I really resisted working with lawyers and in law firms. And my reasoning at the time wasn’t clear, but I had a very strong sense that that was the right thing to do. I think if I look back, the reasoning was I was so close to it, I didn’t want to bring baggage. Is the wrong word, but I didn’t want to bring my own perceptions. And, you know, just because I experienced it, that must be what you were experiencing. So I didn’t want to cloud the clarity with which I was supporting people, with something that was coming just from me. I hadn’t had enough time at that stage to observe, to listen, to really understand, so I didn’t work with lawyers for the first two or three years, and as my business developed and in through COVID, again, my husband’s played a pivotal part in this. And, you know, in a very clear way, he said to me, you know, why are you letting go of that unique experience that you’ve had that’s a niche that you know, USPS are useful in business? Would you not try that? Would you not think that that’s a good way to move forward? So all credit to him and a couple of other friends and colleagues who similarly were saying, why are you not working with lawyers? So shout out to all of those people. And yes. So then I started to think, you know what? That’s actually a really good idea. And I still needed to be really careful, and this is an emotional intelligence piece that I work on all the time, that I wasn’t bringing my ideas and my thoughts as solutions to other people’s challenges, that there had to be a way of using experience and offering insight, but blending that with leadership skills that I’d seen that have nothing to do with law and experience that I’ve had that are nothing to do with law. So my practice, deliberately and very intentionally now is, yes, focused in terms of an output or a marketing output, is very much focused on the legal profession, and that’s where I really, really feel I have that niche, but balanced always by working with clients outside of that space. For the simple reason that I get balance, I see other ways of doing it. I get to observe things where I think, Wow, I wonder if that’s possible in a law firm. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t, but it gives me that insight, keeps me honest, I think, keeps me fresh, and keeps me from saying, Oh, that would never work in a law firm. And I think, you know, it is really important for me. So, so I’m, I’m all about that balance, but yes, it is very focused, from a USP perspective, on the areas of skill set and capabilities that I believe I bring into the legal profession,

Larissa Feeney  28:26

and going deep in a sector and finding a niche is a brilliant way to stand out from the crowd and to differentiate yourself from your competition, especially in a sector like yours, where there’s a lot there’s a lot of people out there now. Katie, you know, qualified to do exactly what it is that you do. So finding a way to stand out from the competition, no more than all of us in any business, gets difficult as the competition, you know, heightens. What are the specific challenges that you see in the legal sector that you help your clients with that we may not see in other sectors.

Katie da Gama  29:04

So one of the clear ones for me, that stands out is that transition from expert to leader and again, definitely not unique to law firms, but I think has a particular strength in law firms. Lawyers are necessarily seen as having very strong skill sets in the expert area in which they practice, whether that’s corporate and commercial litigation, shipping insurance, whatever it might be. If you are a client and you look up a lawyer and it’s, you know, it’s really clear that that’s their specialism, you are going to see them as credible. You are going to see them as an expert in a space. And of course, what we know as we move through any organization is that, of course, expertise is important, and it tends to be the basis on which you rise through those organizations. But leadership, pure leadership. Of teams of people, of strategy of growth doesn’t rely on those expert areas. You know, you can be the best expert you could ever hope to be in a particular area. Doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to be the most you know, insightful and inspiring and motivating leader. That’s a different skill set. And yes, that’s true in other sectors, but, but what I see in the non partnership model sector clients I have is that people are encouraged to be leaders at an at an earlier stage in their career, whereas in in law and I’m sure in other professional services, the focus tends to be on building your expertise, muscle, technical expertise, exactly, exactly. And so whereas, you know, my husband doesn’t work in professional services, and it’s much clearer for me to see in his organization that you become embedded in leadership. Let’s call it little L leadership, as I’m often heard saying, you know, not necessarily a title. You don’t necessarily have the head of position, but you are a team member, and you are encouraged to develop your leadership skills at a much earlier stage, again, with a focus on whatever your your area of expertise is, but but balanced so. So I think when lawyers get to that senior associate and certainly in the partnership stages of their career, and that the enormity of what leadership can mean, and in my view, should mean, is dawning on a lot of them. Some of them take to it completely naturally. And of course, that’s going to be true in lots of organizations. Some of us, and I absolutely put myself in this category, some of us struggle and think, Wow, I almost have to build a completely new skill set and a completely new perspective on how to run my business that is not tied to the expertise I have in an area of law, but is tied to something much more messy, much more complex, much more nuanced. And you know that can feel overwhelming, it certainly did for me, and I’m still learning absolutely how to, you know, how to experiment with that, and how to get through it, but that’s an area of focus that I love working in because I think it’s something that has really tangible results. If you identify what type of leader you want to be that is suited to your team, that is suited to your organization, or that disrupts it in a positive way, then you know, how possible can you make all these things that you want to accomplish, and how much potential can you get out of you know people who are working for you and that thriving environment? That’s the area I love. That’s the area where I get huge joy, personally and professionally. So, so that’s an area I see a lot of a lot of my clients in, and

Larissa Feeney  32:58

whenever I was reading about what you do, and your website is excellent, by the way. So so well done on that. Whenever I was reading on what what you do, you’ve got a couple of methods that are, well, unique to me that I’d never heard about. So maybe tell us about some of the methods that you use with your clients. Yeah.

Katie da Gama  33:13

So, so one of the more recent methods I use with my clients is the Lego serious play method. So you may, you may well have heard of that, or the listener may have heard of that. And with my very, very good colleague, Aideen Hickey, who runs her own business fantastically as well, she and I qualified as Lego serious play facilitators over in the home of Lego Land in Billund, in the Lego Land sort of home, if you like. And you know, Lego serious play is backed by huge academic research and lots of understanding of how people think, and we get into a narrow focus, I think, as we get older and as we get more experienced in business, that is, we need to think our way through challenges, or we need to think our way through strategy or think our way through leadership skills, and of course, we need to do the thinking, but we translate some of that thinking into building so into using that creative side of ourselves that is freer from the sort of the grasp of language, and must get it right, and must use the right word into metaphors and imagination and building and using the hands to do the thinking, rather than always the brain. And it allows a really level playing field, particularly in teams and in organizations wider organizations, it allows the leveling of that playing field. Everybody starts with a whole pile of bricks, and you get to build. And what you build is your thinking, is your metaphor, is your story. No one can shoot you down for that. It’s very much that’s your model, and you’re entitled to have whatever model you want. And it encourages people to think and talk to each other and. Stand perspective. And you know, where might you be coming from. I had no idea that you felt that you were the red brick, whatever the red brick signifies. And now I’m just realizing how that might come out in our team. So how do we work with that? And what can we do with that? And it sparks creativity in a way that I would always say, oh, lawyers, we’re not very creative, and I’m certainly not very creative, but it sparks something in everyone. I’ve yet to meet someone. It doesn’t spark something in them to allow that freeing of thinking. So really, yeah, really interesting way of working through challenges. So definitely one that we recommend. It

Larissa Feeney  35:42

sounds fascinating. And I think accountants like lawyers. We don’t look at ourselves as creative. But actually, if you get down deep into we probably are. There’s a create creativity somewhere in there, yeah.

Katie da Gama  35:53

And I also think, you know, let’s redefine that as well. Larissa, you know, let’s think about creativity. You know, if you’re a lawyer or an accountant or someone in professional services, what do you what are you doing? You are taking a situation, whatever your clients are bringing you, and you are thinking your way through that challenge to reach an outcome that’s hugely creative. Does it always involve art or, you know, something in clay? No, of course, not necessarily, but, you know, it might involve a piece of paper and a pen, or nowadays, actually much more likely to be computers and AI and all sorts of things. But it’s really creative, isn’t it? We take a challenge and we work our way through it, and we get to somewhere else. So Let’s enhance that creativity. Let’s change that message that we’re not being creative. We are, it’s just that we maybe can harm it, harness that in a slightly different way. Yeah,

Larissa Feeney  36:44

no, absolutely. Katie, what’s your plans for the business over the next three or five years? So my

Katie da Gama  36:51

plan immediately is to really make sure my message is clear for myself and for my clients. So what is that disruptor? And I use that term really deliberately, because I know myself. I could sit into the I have lovely clients, I have a business that I’m really proud of, that keeps me in comfort in terms of my own parameters. And I could sit in that and think, yeah, that’s lovely. But I know myself that given the two sort of jumps or leaps I’ve made in the past, I have something in me that makes me want to jump again, not out of the business. So for me this time, the LEAP is, let’s get really clear on the message. Let’s you know, let’s see what that disrupter might be. I’m sure there’s something else out there that perhaps takes me into the what is the unthinkable? What haven’t we done in law firms and with lawyers yet? And I’m really working on that at the moment. So three to five years for me is, let’s get really clear. I’m wanting to get really clear on that for my own strategy, and to work with clients that are able to see what they want to achieve and to support them to get there and to keep building those connections. And let’s see where that goes. And you know whether that’s internationally, I’m open for that as well.

Larissa Feeney  38:21

There’s so much potential, isn’t there? Because, you know, I think the way we work today, and how we work and how leadership has evolved and changed has meant that, you know, professional services are now much more open to the importance of the services that you can bring, the skills that you can bring, and how you can develop their teams to lead in a much more sustainable way for the longer term. So there’s so much opportunity and potential. I think the key message from for me, from our talk today, and thank you again for coming on, is, you know, the importance of taking the leap, and you know, trying to figure out how to do that in a way that makes sense for you, and you’ve done that twice, and you’ll probably do it again, I’m sure. What advice would you give Katie to somebody who’s in that position now, who you know, who’s looking to make a decision that could have consequences or will have consequences, whether they’re good or bad? Would you have any advice to give?

Katie da Gama  39:21

So the first place I’d start Larissa is, you know, map out what your current comfort zone is. Because I think whatever stage of our careers and lives, we find ourselves in a comfort zone, and that’s a lovely space to be. Sometimes we fight really hard to have that comfort zone, and that’s fantastic. Let’s first identify what that comfort zone looks like. So So almost visualize it. Where are the parameters of that comfort zone, what’s in it and what’s just outside it and what’s way outside it? And if someone is ready, and of course, if someone has the practical wherewithal. Because I’m really conscious that there are people out there who may think. Yeah, well, that’s all fine if you’ve got plenty of resources. But I can’t, you know, let go of my job right at the moment because I need, I need that, you know, income. So mapping, it doesn’t take you to a place that will make you too uncomfortable too soon, but it does allow you to see where you’re currently at and once you know what’s just outside your comfort zone, but that gives you energy. So yes, it might be outside your comfort zone and it might scare you, but does that? Does it also give you a little bit of, Oh, I wonder if or oh, what might that bring for me? And if you can identify that, is there a way that you can start to step into that that doesn’t mean you have to shun your current role. You’ll still be doing your current role. You’ll still get your, you know, your salary and all of the things that are needed. But can you start stepping into that? Might it be starting a podcast? Might it be volunteering for something? Might it be, I think, the phrase a lot of people use nowadays, might it be a side hustle. So for example, if you’re in a, you know, very structured career, but you have a huge passion for art, or making pottery, or, I don’t know, whatever it might be, could you do that? And I hate to say spare time, because a lot of my clients say I don’t have any spare time. Could you do could you make time for that so that you’re pushing your comfort zone a little without it stepping into I’ve just left my job yesterday, and I have nothing to go to. And could you, could you pay attention to how that makes you feel? So is that something that you could expand, perhaps, or is that something that might stay as a side hustle or a hobby, or something that gives you the joy that you’re looking for in addition to the joy you get at work. And you know, that’s about awareness. That’s about seeing where your potential is, identifying those skill sets, being really honest with yourself, and you know, maybe a trusted confidant, if you have one, about actually what I’d really love to do if I had no ties or no, you know, economic needs, this is what I’d love to do. Okay, well, maybe that’s not possible right now, given your circumstances, but what might that look like? How might you step outside into that space and then recognizing that comfort zones expand, and that’s been an absolute revelation for me. It sounds very basic, and I’m sure everybody else knows this, but I had always seen a comfort zone as a fixed piece around me, as sort of a fixed boundary that, oh, that’s my comfort zone. And if I go outside, it’s going to be really uncomfortable. And yes, it is, but if it’s in service of something that you really want to do. Fantastic. Because do you know what happens quite often is you go outside that comfort zone, you practice, you experiment, you fail Absolutely, you fall down, you get up, and then magically, your comfort zone has expanded. I probably sound a bit silly saying that, but it, but it’s it’s been a real again revelation for me that I have a comfort zone. I push myself to step outside it, and then the comfort zone expands with me, and capabilities expand. So I have learned how to do strategy. I have learned how to guide people. I have learned how to write a, you know, a LinkedIn post. I have learned and learned and learned. So my capabilities now versus seven years ago when I set up my business are vastly different. I would hope better, and certainly I feel more skilled at certain things that were previously well outside my comfort zone. So identify where that is for you right now. Identify what’s just outside it, give it a go in a practice, in a safe to fail way, because maybe it won’t go as well as you want it to. Notice what’s going on for you, notice what gives you energy. And then ask yourself and maybe others, how could you do more of that whilst making sure that you pay attention, obviously, to the needs you have, family needs, you know, personal needs, financial needs, etc. And you know, the more we think about that, the more we allow ourselves and empower ourselves to think like that, the less we’ll feel stuck in whatever we might be in at the moment, because there’s, there’s so many opportunities out there, and we’re here to try and see what those opportunities are, and go for them, if they work for you.

Larissa Feeney  44:22

I love that expansion of comfort zone. Casey, that’s a great way of describing it, because what you described is, you know, you scared of something. You do it. Okay, you might be very good at it, you might feel at it, but you’re not scared of it anymore. So now it’s part of your comfort zone. So yeah, I love it. Thank you. Thank you very much, Katie, unfortunately, we have to leave it there because we’re out of time. Executive coach and founder of senators, Katie de gamma, thank you very much for joining us today.

Katie da Gama  44:50

Oh, Larissa, thank you. It’s been really, really interesting. Thank you for the conversation. Thank

Outro  44:55

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