Pension Planning Made Simple

OK, we get it. Even the mere mention of the “P” word makes you want to bury your head in the sand. Something to do later, right? Or maybe you think it’s already too late?

This is a BIG MISTAKE!

In the new Kinore “Real Business Conversations” podcast episode, wealth expert Niall Leyden explains why it’s never too early, and never too late, to take control of your financial future which includes PENSION PLANNING.

Nial Leyden has over 30 years’ experience working as a wealth/asset manager for Ulster Bank and Permanent TSB, and has recently become an entrepreneur himself.

In January 2024, Nial formed his own wealth management company, Atlantic Wealth Management.

This episode of Real Business Conversations contains invaluable advice for any business owner, regardless of whether you are just starting out or a seasoned entrepreneur.

In just 30 minutes, we cover topics that we believe could make a significant difference to your life in the years to come.

Learn more about Niall Leyden and Atlantic Wealth Management here:

https://atlanticwm.ie/

For your convenience, we include an automated AI podcast transcription.

Larissa Feeney 0:00
On this episode of Real Business Conversations, we’re joined by a man who dedicated over three decades of his life to managing the wealth of Irish entrepreneurs and business owners during his long career in corporate banking. Now he continues to share his expertise through his own company, Atlantic Wealth Management.

Niall Leyden 0:17
People talk about pensions and retirement planning, but you know, there is in business. It’s getting the balance right. I was with a business last week, and the question I was asked was, how much would we need to have, if you like, in a pot to replace an income in today’s terms of 100,000

Announcer 0:32
No unicorns, no brands, just hard working people who built their business from the ground up, sharing their experience so others can learn. Presented by Larissa Feeney from Kinore. This is Real Business Conversations.

Larissa Feeney 0:52
Hi. I’m Larissa Feeney, CEO and founder of Kinore Finance and Business services. This episode contains some truly invaluable advice on critical topics like health, wealth management and pension planning, whether you’re just starting out or you’re an established business owner, it’s my great pleasure to welcome today’s guest, Niall Leyden.

Niall Leyden 1:11
Larissa, thanks for having me on. Hugely excited.

Larissa Feeney 1:18
Niall, you made a big decision to change from a career in banking to setting up your own business. And that’s relatively recent. The business is still relatively young, isn’t that, right?

Niall Leyden 1:30
It is. Larissa, yeah, I suppose, like everything in life, we’ll probably take a step back to go forward. So I’d have enjoyed probably the best part of 25 nearly 30 years in corporate wealth management, financial planning. Started my career back in the what seems, I guess, to the late 90s in permanent TSB, and 20 years then with Ulster Bank, who have since left town. And yeah, we set up Atlantic wealth management. We started trading on the sixth of January, 2024 so we’re, we’re 18 months in now, and it’s been, it’s been a roller coaster. It’s been extraordinary, but

Larissa Feeney 2:00
It’s been brilliant. So it’s still a baby. Now we’re still only

Niall Leyden 2:04
a little babo. I’m probably, as my wife would say, a big, big baby too. But we’re learning. We’re enjoying the journey. We’re enjoying the challenges. That was

Larissa Feeney 2:12
a big step. I know you were scratching the entrepreneurial itch. Did you always want to be an entrepreneur? Because that was a long time. Niall as an employee in a structured environment with, you know, the certainty of a paycheck at the end of the month. Did you always want to work for

Niall Leyden 2:26
yourself? Yes, is probably the honest answer. Larissa, I suppose part of that was because I’ve always had a very strong belief, I suppose, shape on my own life, on my own clients, that I’ve had the pleasure of working with us. You know, wealth is very easy to measure but very hard to value. And it’s not just about the money, you know, it’s about the freedom, the freedom to build something meaningful, something that you’re very proud of, something that really aligns with your values. And I think the highest form of wealth is, you know, the freedom to do what you want, when you want, where you want, with whom you want. And haven’t had the pleasure of, you know, working for the best part of 25 nearly 30 years, with wonderful colleagues and lifelong friends across you know, permanent GSB, Irish Life and Ulster Bank, traveling all over Ireland, working with phenomenal people. I mean, it was all about our clients, entrepreneurs, business owners. I was extremely fortunate. There’s no question about the risk. You know, I had a very steady income, a respected role, great colleagues, and a bird’s eye view, you know, behind the curtain in terms of the world of finance, of business, of financial planning in good and very bad times. Because it is in bad times and adversity that the hard lessons are learned, and I certainly learned a good few of them in around 2008 there were periods when things were fairly catastrophic and but there was certainly a point where I, you know, there was always this passion, this need, this desire to create something special. You know, ultimately I was really a very small cog on a big wheel. There were the pressures that come with working in a big corporate with targets and KPIs and so forth. And maybe the environment has become a little bit transactional and turning 50 next year. You know, there comes a time in your life where you have to know, action beats intention. And what I love, I mean my mission in life and in Atlantic wealth, working with Connie and Brendan, our clients and our partners, is the conversations in the boardrooms, in the kitchens, out and about feeling and understanding and appreciating what makes our clients tick, their families, their parents, their legacy, their goals, their dreams, their aspirations, what keeps them awake at night, and I suppose increasingly, I felt that I couldn’t do the work I wanted with space, with depth, I suppose, with purpose inside that corporate structure. So entrepreneurial itch, I suppose it was a calling. It was something I always wanted to do in the Atlantic. I have a passion for as you know, for as you know, I mean it as often as I can. It gives me balance. It gives me purpose. It gives me focus. It helps me slow down, to speed up. And probably a conversation that I had with my son, Mark, back in the middle of covid, in a tough time in my own world, where he just kind of candidly said to me, you know, Dad, it’s time to look forward and not back. You’re lucky. And I don’t know. And I mean, that was the conversation, that was the pivot, that was the change that, you know, created and sparked Atlantic wealth management, and ultimately the reason we’re here for today. And I suppose maybe in a quiet way, Larissa, I was always ambitious in terms of following in the footsteps of giants. That being dad, he was an exceptional entrepreneur. But more importantly is, you know, at 75 behaving like a 45 year old, a brilliant person. We’re very close, and we talk every day, and I’d have always taken his counsel. But in summary, there is a scratching as I am. I’m here now. We’re having, having this conversation, and our focus is very much on quality over quantity, and relationships over transactions and long term. You know, these are decade long relationships, and we’re very deliberate about who we serve clients that align with our own values around clarity, control and confidence. So yeah, that’s the work I love, and that’s the reason we’re here today. Larissa, did you feel

Larissa Feeney 5:51
that you could serve your clients better yourself, without the constraints of the corporate behind you?

Niall Leyden 5:57
That’s a brilliant question. Larissa, do you think you could serve your clients better on your own? I wouldn’t say I ever wanted to go alone. You know, it’s very much a team sport wealth management. You know, we work very collaboratively with all of our clients, inner sanctum, their accountants, their tax consultants, their advisors, their legal profession, their family, because it’s ultimately all about them and understanding what does good look like for for our clients, you know, their personal life and their business life. So the truth is, we’re never on our own at Atlantic wealth, you know, certainly we’re a small, highly committed team, and that’s, that’s that was always my vision, that was always my goal, and working collaboratively with our clients, team and partners like Irish Life to deliver bespoke needs based strategies that are very much in sync with our clients purpose and their goals. So it wasn’t ever about serving clients better. I suppose it was serving our clients differently, slower, deeper and more intentional. And I go back to be where your feet are and be present. And you know, we talked about, you know, what’s my, what’s what’s my thinking about the highest form of wealth, and it’s having that freedom to spend, if you like, more time with our clients and in their business and understanding their business. Because ultimately, Larissa, I’ve always believed that the best outcomes, and we know this to be very true, come from long term thinking and joined up collaborative advice and meaningful relationships. And that’s why we built Atlantic wealth, to create a space where purpose and plan and portfolio can all sit finally around the same table, and it’s much more for me about alignment and clarity and real partnership. We’re not chasing scale. We’re building significance. We’re making a real difference in our clients lives and then the businesses that we deal with. And when you work that way, it’s like sports. I always use the analogy with sporting and business. You look at the man United’s back in the 90s. You look at Rory McIlroy. You look at Tiger Woods. You look at, I mean, look at what tipper area achieved. You look at Curry versus Donnie gall. My wife isn’t too pleased about that, nor was your good self. I mean, a phenomenal Jimmy McGinnis there, Jack O’Connor. But when you get the right people around the table and you, you know, you’d line the advice, what really matters, financial planning genuinely changes lives. It becomes transformational. Because outside of good lifestyle, what does anyone want? Obviously, good health. So what clients, I believe, truly need is a partner, a strategic thinking partner, a behavioral coach, somebody that they can trust and that will respect, maybe not necessarily always like, because we have uncomfortable conversations. So that’s what we do. We’re with them in good times and in bad and it’s not for weeks or months or years. This is decades. This is the long game, and we’re in it all together. No,

Larissa Feeney 8:28
it does. It does. And I know that you talk about purpose, plan and portfolio whenever you talk about your business. So you’re not just a financial advisor who will set up a pension Niall. You are one that will help a business, help a family, figure out where are you going ultimately, and how we can get

Niall Leyden 8:45
you there. For me, Larissa, I always bring it back to lifestyle, because outside of good health, we’ll talk a little bit more about health in a short while. But when you strip it all away, like outside of good health, what does any of us want? We want a good lifestyle. That’s your why. That’s what fuels you. That’s what gets you up in the morning at six or seven o’clock. It’s your family. It’s your family, it’s your children, it’s your parents, it’s your clients, it’s your business. It’s what you’re doing in Kinore and what I’m doing Atlantic well, so that’s what drives you, and that’s your values. And Atlantic wealth management’s why needs to be very closely aligned with our clients.
Why? So it’s much less about us and much more about the clients, helping people identify, achieve and maintain their desired lifestyle, because Larissa, we both know people that are working tirelessly in their business. So we need to begin with the end in mind and help articulate to people for them to get their desired lifestyle. How much is enough? What is the number that they need to be financially independent, to be financially free? And that’s what we do very, very well.

Larissa Feeney 9:41
Niall, can I ask you? Because that’s all really, really important. Every business owner recognises the importance of that. I think the challenge for a lot of business owners that I’ve spoken to over the years, and indeed myself as a business owner, is that we tend to. Self sacrifice a lot. Perhaps we don’t take a decent salary, or we certainly don’t contribute to a pension in any meaningful way for a long time, sometimes until it’s either too late, or it might be almost too late. But for those businesses that might be in the early years, not necessarily startups, but maybe even the first 10 years of their business journey. And we know that the vast majority of businesses, you know it’s a 20 or 25 year journey. There are some exceptions, of course, but for a lot of us, it’s a 20 or 25 year journey. What advice would you give them?

Niall Leyden 10:32
My advice is, it’s like anything else, action beats intention, sitting down a cup of tea, a blank page with somebody like yourself, myself and just having that conversation, and it will evolve from there. You know.

Larissa Feeney 10:45
What I found really helpful was, just as you say, sitting down and discussing, okay, what does it look like at 55 at 60 at 65 given the current situation, current levels of pension contributions. And what are the obligations, personal obligations, at that time, in terms of kids in college or mortgage or whatever. And then, if we do a little bit of, you know, tweaking of the numbers, you know, if I was to contribute X percent more, what does that do? If I was to level off contributions, what does that do? And painting that picture, I think, was really, I found that really helpful to understand, okay, this is what will happen if I continue doing what I’m doing right now. Yeah, and this is what will happen if you increase contributions, or, you know, whatever you might do slowly, over a period of time. And this might happen if the business can afford to contribute a little bit more. So painting that picture was really helpful for me to make it real, even though it’s it’s still quite a distance away and not as, not as long as what I would like it to be, but it’s still quite a distance away, and it can be difficult sometimes to understand that, you know, because it’s so far away. But I think, as you say, painting that picture really helps.

Niall Leyden 12:00
Larissa, you’re so right. I mean, painting a picture does paint 1000 words, and pensions are not something to be afraid of. I mean, we need to demystify the complex. And I mean, that’s our mission in Atlantic wealth. It’s something I feel very passionately about, because the third act, I mean, with life expectancy, increasing pressure on the state pension, all this talk of auto enrollment, the government, you know, this kind of stop, start strategy around PRs says and Master Trusts and buyout bonds and company pensions, personal pensions. That’s all lingo. That’s all language that to the lay person working in their business tirelessly, they don’t need to understand or appreciate, as my mother always says, If you want mass, a call or priest, and I think, to answer your question around the whole pension piece. I go back to saying a business that we were with recently, and very, very prominent business here, domestically, in Ireland and internationally, and but have probably neglected their own financial well being. There are a couple in their mid 50s. And the question I was asked was this, how much would we need, if you like, in a pot, to replace an income in today’s terms of 100,000 euros. That’s a great question, and that really is the golden question, how much is enough to live well without running out of money or dying with too much? And the truth is, there’s no size that fits all answer. It depends very much on your lifestyle. It depends on your goals, your health, your families, your values, and what kind of life do you want to live after work to have a dignified, respectful retirement. You know, when the kids are reared and the mortgages are cleared, how much is enough? Because outside of good health, what does anyone want? A good lifestyle? So a big lifestyle, big number, small lifestyle, small number. And I mean, a really good place to start. And this is unscientific, but it does help frame the conversation and help explain to people what a decent pension pot might look like the rule of 25 so if you multiply your desired income by 25 that will give you a fairly accurate estimation as to what you should have in your pot. So if you need 5000 a month, which is 60,000 a year, well, if you multiply that by 25 you’re aiming for a pot of 1.5 when you retire, and for the couple that had asked me that question, you know, we looked at the 4% rule, you know, 100,000 a year for 30/35 years without running out of money. If you divide that by 4% you know, on their instance, they’re going to be aiming for a pot of 2.5 million, where they can draw down 4% and, you know, they’re not exact, but they do start the conversation. And from there, we build something that’s far more robust. You know, we do a very detailed cash flow analysis forecasting. We look at their assumptions around longevity and life expectancy and inflation and bomb out risk and different things. But that’s the whole scientific side of it all. Because what we do isn’t just about a number, it’s about building a life. We take a measured, structured and deeply personal approach, not just focused on numbers, but on people, priorities, on their long term outcomes and the risk. I suppose the sweet spot for us and the clients we work best with, they’re often 5/10, even 15 years away from a very major transition where they’re going at one sale, two, exit or three. They’re looking to make work life optional. So ultimately we ask, what does. A great life look like, and what will it take to fund it? And that then Larissa becomes your number. And here’s the opportunity. Many business owners build tremendous value inside their company, but leave it sometimes a little bit too late to extract it efficiently. And that’s where the strategy matters, and that’s where pensions come in, not as a product, but as a solution to a much bigger picture, because most ways of extracting money from a business are taxed heavily. You look at salary with income tax, you will see PRSIi, dividends, taxed again, company cars, perks you have B, i, k, investment returns, taxed at possibly 2533 or sometimes 41% but structured pension planning is tax deductible. It grows tax free. It offers access to a generous, tax free lump sum. And it’s an opportunity to transfer wealth into your own personal name efficiently. And we always say, it’s never about the products. We go back to the purpose to plan the portfolio and the strategy. And this strategy goes way beyond pensions, and it includes working with Kinore and reputable, brilliant businesses, tax consultants, advisors, accountants, looking at entrepreneurial relief, retirement relief, big business Exit Planning and succession conversations. So it’s that whole, if you like, collaborative, forward thinking, tax optimization, working hand in glove at the inner sanctum. Because whether your number is 1 million, 3 million, 5 million, you need to know it. You need to have a plan. And in our work, we’d like to think we could take a very calm, considered, strategic approach, not rushing to headlines or products, but helping clients design a life and a future that make financial and, you know, personal sense, and that, Larissa, for me, is the difference between financial advice and real financial planning. And that’s what we do every day.

Larissa Feeney 16:40
That’s great advice, actually, in all aspects of business, isn’t it like? Isn’t it like, if you know, bring in the experts, but that, thanks for those tips on those two methods of calculating. Because I think that really illustrates, you know, whenever you can put a number on it, if you say, Okay, I need, you know, whatever, 2 million or 1.5 million, or whatever it is in a pension, if you’re sitting at 30,35, 40, there is tons of time to do that, and it’s not as daunting. Whenever you map it out with the benefits of, you know, interest and and compounding interest over several years, it’s not as daunting at all. But sometimes you have to face it and sit, sit down and actually think, okay, if I need to replicate the income that I’m on now, we or a little bit less or a little bit more, what does that look like? Can I switch over now a little bit, if you don’t mind, from business over to yourself, because I know from knowing you over the past number of months, the journey that you’ve been on personally. And I would love to talk about that and to tell our listeners about your personal journey, because you started the business you push, you know, blood, sweat and tears into it, and I talked a little bit about self sacrificing there whenever we talked from a financial perspective. But there’s also self sacrificing in other ways. And maybe talk to us about your experience in that in that regard,

Niall Leyden 17:52
where do I start my tendency and our tendency in schmalt and the business community that we work in, we kind of look at under the tenants of health, wealth, business and family. We meet every fortnight, as you know, and we’re having conversations around what were victories and what’s going well. And I was scoring particularly well on business and family, but unfortunately, on health. It was a downward spiral. My mom always says, Well, there’s two things. She always says, live, love, laugh, but you can’t pour from an empty jug. And I got to a stage probably last year, Larissa in August, because I was traveling so much and putting in the hours that you do, setting up a business and doing wonderful things and enjoying it, my weight spiraled. My sleep was off. My energy was off, my form was off. So business was really good. Family One, two and three, as you know, for me, was really, really good. My son was starting secondary school, and it was only after seeing a photograph his first day in St Denis in Salthill, remember Brenda showed me a photograph that day or that afternoon. And I mean, there’s no words can describe how I felt in Salthill that day. And it was kind of in that moment, I decided something has to change. So I partnered with a gentleman. He’s actually living in Wales that I’ve been following for 20 plus years, and he has a business called 30 plus Men’s Fitness. So we met on Zoom once a week, and I just embarked on a on a journey of, I suppose, accountability and discipline and getting healthier. The good news now is I’m thinking better. I’m sleeping better, I’m moving better. I’m working better. I’m feeling better. Client outcomes are better. And I’m so passionate about that whole piece around health is wealth. So Larissa, a healthy man is 1000 wishes, yeah, and a sick man as only one. And the same is true of wealth in terms of having comfort and confidence and clarity. And for me, I felt that, you know, if I’m talking about lifestyle, financial planning, I need to be true to myself, which I wasn’t.

Larissa Feeney 19:39
I mean, you’re looking and you’re sounding amazing. That’s, that’s what I’ll say first of all. And I’ve, I’ve followed you and been with you all, all along that journey. So I know that how much time and commitment you put into it. You brought in the expert, which was interesting, and you committed at the very start to this happening the heart. Thing for a busy business owner is business and family comes first, and we tend to come way down the list. How did you manage to prioritise yourself while maintaining the effort that you had put into the business and continue to put into the family on a daily basis? How did you manage to balance the three aspects of your life?

Niall Leyden 20:21
Larissa, that’s a really, really insightful question, and one I think that strikes the chord with not just myself, but a lot of the business owners I know and work with, how do I manage the three aspects of my life, business, family and myself, with great difficulty, but I’m learning, and we’re getting there. And I think really, Larissa, we’re very good at working hard. We’re very good at looking after others, our family, our friends, our clients, but when it comes to looking after ourselves and our own energy, our health or mindset, we often lose focus. I certainly did, and truth be told, I certainly took my foot off the pedal in areas that really mattered. I had no goals, no structure, no systems. I was busy, but I wasn’t intentional. I’ve since eliminated the word busy for my vocabulary. And I think when all of that does happen, it catches up with you, your energy dips, habits drift, weight creeps up, accountability fades. And for me, I mean, I wasn’t showing up as a version of myself. I wanted to be for my family, for my clients, or myself. I’m not saying it was burnout or drift or comfortable or complacency, but at some point I stood back. You know, you pause, reflect your balance, and you pivot, and you realise it’s not sustainable, because here I was building a business I believe passionately about. You know, turning 50 next year, I’m serving clients that I care deeply about, that I’m with for decades, raising a family adore, but I wasn’t holding myself to the same standard I’ve asked of others, so we needed to incorporate much more balance. So I changed the game. And like everything I talk about in business, it started with mindset and an identity, change and practice what I preach, setting big goals. But I didn’t do it alone. You know, I lean very much into habits and routines and training and tracking and most importantly, like everything in life, you can’t do it alone, friends, family, clients and my my peer, mastermind scheme community, and should be told, the quiet team behind the scenes that supported and challenged and believed in you, you know that that that, that that’s what made that just all happen. And I wrote it all down so there were kind of quarterly goals broken into 13 120 days. Some included, you know, going 120 days alcohol free, from September to Christmas. You know, the training in the gym, getting very disciplined and work around managing my time, managing my diary, Connie myself, Brendan, the team. You know, we were sitting down every Monday saying, W I N, what’s important now? And I said about then, I suppose, last, last, this time, yeah, about 12 months ago, a really ambitious, at the time lifestyle goal to, I like a bit of cycling. I’m passionate about supporting a number of causes, but one that myself and a number of friends do is, is the cycle against suicide. So we had cycle from Inis to Mallon and here in Ireland a couple of times, and they announced they were doing Portugal, which was, there’s a road and into 738 kilometers from the top up and Chavez down to Fort Pharaoh at the bottom. So that was a challenge there that, you know, I took nearly a year to prepare for a 10,000 meters climb, and a little bit higher than Everest for a big lad like me thats built for comfort, not speed. So I wrote it down to be fair. I mean, the six incredible laws that I did it with the funds we raised, you know, the awareness for something we’re all passionate about. But it wasn’t about just the money. It was the journeys, the stories, the training, the sacrifices, but the sense of meaning and fulfillment behind it all. Because when you take your health seriously, which I haven’t for some time, everything else sharpens, your energy, lifts, your clarity improves, and my performance definitely got a lot better, and not just for me, but for the people that relied on me. So I think James clear will put it better than any of us, and he said in his book atomic habits, a worldwide bestseller, that I enjoyed reading. And he said, You don’t rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. What a statement and how true it is. And we built new systems. And out of that, I suppose, ultimately, what were the results? My clients are definitely getting a better me, my family, are getting a present dad and a good husband most of the time. And certainly the business is a lot stronger for it. And I think ultimately, for me, it was about recognizing that health and family and business, they’re not competing priorities. They’re all interconnected pillars, and when I align them, it created a platform for everything else. So now I’m living by a simple truth most of the time, 80% of the time, if I’m at my best, everything else benefits.

Larissa Feeney 24:39
Oh, they are. My goodness, they are. And if I was to ask you, you know, for one bit of advice that you would give to somebody who maybe feels that they’ve lost themselves a little bit along the journey of growing a business, um, because I think the danger for a lot of us is that as business owners, we might get burned out a little bit. Um. And get overwhelmed a little bit. You know, what advice would you give somebody who feels that has happened to them, that they just maybe have lost themselves a little bit along the way?

Niall Leyden 25:10
My advice would be very simple. I mean, reach out to somebody that you admire, that you trust, that gives you energy. Entrepreneurial. Loneliness is very, very real. Don’t go it alone. It’s like having a financial plan. It’s like having a team sport. Have a mentor, have a coach, have somebody a trust. And we all have bad days whilst business is going really well and health is going brilliant, I know more better than anyone. You know when we plan God smiles. Time is our most valuable asset, and the one thing I’m incredibly passionate about is avoiding that if but when trap that might never materialize. Stuff does happen. People get sick. People unfortunately die. So we live every day and die once. And my mantra is Carpe Diem and being present and being where your feet are. But if there are business owners out there that need to talk or need to chat, reach out to me. Reach out to your good self. Don’t try and recreate the wheel. The answers are out there.

Larissa Feeney 26:05
I have heard as well about, you know, having a personal board of directors as well. Which I find a fascinating concept, because we, you know, we have a board of directors for the business. And the purpose of the board of directors is obviously to act in the best interest of the business, not in the best interest of the business owner. And there’s a really important distinction there. You know, we generally default to making the decision that’s in the best interest of the business, not necessarily in the best interest of the business owner. Can you help the business owner determine what’s in the best interest of their lifestyle, of their goals, rather than the business itself? Does that make sense?

Niall Leyden 26:41
Makes perfect sense, Louis, and I mean, that’s my mission in life, and that’s why we set up Atlantic wealth management. It’s much less about the financial products or that they’re only ever the tools in the bag. It’s having the confidence to back yourself. And haven’t been forced to do this for 25 nearly 30 years, and sat across and worked with some of Ireland’s greatest I know, the swings and the roundabouts, the ebbs and the flows, the do’s and the don’ts, what works what doesn’t. It’s so important that we take time out of the business to work. So we’re all working in the business. Take a day out every month, which is what I do. That’s where the magic happens. You know, when you take off your hat and you’re relaxed and and it’s okay not to be okay. I mean, we don’t have all of the answers, but we certainly know where to find them. You know,

Larissa Feeney 27:25
Niall, I’m fascinated as to how you manage the pressure of what you do. So to me, you’re advising clients to make decisions on financial issues that will affect them in 10,20, or 30 years time. That’s a huge amount of responsibility on your shoulders. You’re managing your clients wealth and their family wealth that impact them and obviously future generations. How do you personally cope with that responsibility?

Niall Leyden 27:51
Well, Larissa, it’s a serious business. People are entrusting us with their finances, with their livelihoods. We’re very grounded in doing the simple things right, getting brilliant at the basics. Warren Buffett talks around getting your asset allocation right. There’s some other people like Nick Murray. Paul Armstrong wrote a magnificent book called enough around the importance of understanding your clients financially and emotionally. And when we do that in conjunction with Kinore or with their accountants or with their solicitors. It’s very collaborative, so I sleep much easier now at night. I mean, 2008 taught us all very valuable lessons, and I or my clients will never make the mistakes of over leveraging or not diversifying. It’s having a shorter, medium and long term plan, ensuring there’s liquidity there, ensuring that they’re comfortable with whatever recommendation or proposal we put in place. It’s a responsibility we take very, very seriously. But when you’re doing it for probably as long as I am, you know what works and you know what doesn’t. So always do the right thing because it’s the right thing and begin with the end in mind, and it becomes a lot more apparent.

Larissa Feeney 28:55
Niall, I know you did a podcast around Christmas that talked about 10 Commandments of wealth management, and I found it fascinating. I will ask for a link to the podcast to be put in the show notes, but maybe you can give us a couple of minutes on the major points around those 10 Commandments, when, whenever we talk about wealth management,

Niall Leyden 29:17
Absolutely. Larissa, I mean, for me, that was my first ever podcast, but it’s the one that I think has touched and transformed and resonated with business owners. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result. And that’s why the 10 Commandments for me was, you know, 2530 years in a very noble profession, trying to distill this down into 10 Commandments that demystifies financial planning and health and wealth and family and business. So and the 10 Commandments, you know, they touch on people, first, money, second, that purpose, plan, portfolio, we wear three hats. I cannot or won’t ever talk to anyone about pensions or retirement planning or business or anything. I can understand them financially and emotionally. And it has to go in that order. Warren Buffett talked about it this year. Charlie Munger as part. Partner passed away, one of the wealthiest men in the world. I watched Berkshire Hathaway the AGM every year. He was asked, if he died tomorrow morning, what would he do? When he said, own the great companies in the world, progress is permanent. You know, if you look at the evolution of time and populations and technology, the Coca Cola is the LinkedIn, the Pfizers, the Facebooks, the L’Oreal so he said, but 90% of percent of your money into companies. Be an owner, not a loner, so own and participate in the golden grade and wonderful companies of the world and have 10% then in cash or bonds. We’re a lot more scientific in terms of risk tolerance and capacity. But his message is a good one, health is wealth. We’ve talked about that. Larissa, I mean, I probably have that number one. It’s your most important non financial asset. We talked a healthy man is 1000 wishes. A sick man is only one my best clients protect their health like their wealth. They have quarterly timeouts. They’re journaling. They’re doing off sites, mindset and discipline. They’re absolutely everything. Finish what you started and focus on what matters now. Lewis, I talk a lot to our clients around time, money and pain. And patience, and that’s the world I live in, time, money and patience. And the real engine growth of wealth management is just that It’s like planting a tree. The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is today. So Warren Buffett says is best somebody is sitting in the shade today because somebody planted a tree a long time ago, we look at 2008 I learned some really valuable lessons. There was carnage in Ireland, all over the world. It was like just somebody stopped the clocks. People lost their jobs, lost their homes, lost their lives. Was in this catastrophic and there was others then that leaned into it. And the opportunities that we share in the commandments and to this day, have done really, really well the sixth one. Then we talk a lot around habits, progress, not perfection. 1% better every day, and that compounding, you know, pay yourself first, automate your savings. Wondrous. I know you’re passionate about inflation and taxes. There the two silent thieves that inflation, the big one there that eats cash, tax rewards or returns, and we need to plan accordingly. So cash, for me, is like ice and a window sill if you leave them there long enough they want to melt. So tax is a big cost work with professions like yourselves. Tax optimization and inflation rewards the prepared. Tax punishes the complacent. If you look at assets that are inflation proof, whether it’s equity or property, they can and will work. And then the last one is people think by putting money in cash, that’s safe. We have really robust conversations around the consequences of leaving money in cash with inflation and different asset classes and building the right people having a good tribe.

Larissa Feeney 32:34
Can I pick you up on two points? Of course, you can the first one from your very first paycheck, yeah, pay something into a pension. The second best time is now, if you didn’t pay into a pension from your very first paycheck, we’ll make sure you’re paying into one today. Perfect. So if people are listening and you don’t have a pension, start one and pay something, anything that

Niall Leyden 32:57
is so important. Larissa, I mean, people think they need to be putting the sun, moon and stars into pensions, there’s auto enrollment. The landscape is changing retirement planning. You know, we have an aging population. The good news is there’s massive incentives there to put money into pensions.
Start small. It’s like putting an acorn in the ground. It will eventually grow. We’ll review it every six or 12 months. But action beats intention. If you have an attention, get a pension, you will be auto enrolled. There’ll be a segment of the population will automatically be enrolled. But engage with a firm, a financial planner, that understands this. It’s never too late. The right time to start is today.

Larissa Feeney 33:33
And can I just add to that before I ask you second question, I just want to add to what you said, because what I have seen over over many years is, and I’m particularly talking to women here, so women who are perhaps working in the family business or in some capacity supporting their spouse in the business. For you guys, if you are listening, it’s equally as important for every person to have their own pension, regardless of the salary that they’re getting or not getting from the family business, having a personal pension, or preparing some in some way for retirement in an individual capacity, is really, really important.

Niall Leyden 34:08
It’s massively important, remiss, and even I’m practicing there where we preach, Brenda’s an integral part of our business. In Atlantic, wealth has a pension. I have a pension. You know, it’s such an important piece. Because if you think about this, when the when the kids are reared and the mortgages are cleared, we get into the third act, whether that’s a 55 or 60, or 65 or 70, making work life optional and ensuring that you have a decent path there. And the good news is there are incentives, there are tax reliefs. It can be done. It will be done. It’s just a case of sitting down with somebody and just implementing that plan and getting it done.

Larissa Feeney 34:42
Absolutely. My second question, then, actually, is the other end of the scale. So, you know, I mentioned there, you know, if you don’t have a pension today, start on it doesn’t matter how small. If you’re lucky enough to have built a business that has some cash reserves and you are and the business is growing or profitable, you know. Yeah, you’re taking care of yourself from a pension perspective. You’re taking care of the business from an investment perspective. And there’s, there’s surplus cash in the business. And you mentioned there that you know inflation is eroding cash. What’s the options for business owners who are in that lucky position?

Niall Leyden 35:15
Larissa, there’s no doubt about it. We’re hearing that more and more from the successful business owners who have done the heavy lifting of the fund of the pensions to reinvest in their team and their business, and they’re now sitting in surplus cash. And I always bring it back to your why, you know, the purpose. What’s the money for? Is it the business? Is it the legacy? Is it expansion? Is it an exit? Is it making work life optional? So and it’s only when we understand, you know, the business owner and their goals and their dreams and their aspirations and their concerns and what the money is for, and have a really, really good understanding of the business and themselves, financially and emotionally, can we ever begin to have a conversation about the next step and building a plan. So in Ireland at the moment, the risk that there’s 160 billion sitting on deposit, earning minimal interest in the banks, and inflation, okay, it’s down from where it was hovering around two or 3% but that, you know, inflation being a silent killer, and that money is slowly losing its value every single day, and it’s purchasing power. And in real terms, the risk of a million euros today could be worth six or 700 or 700,000 or less in a decade from now. So that’s the silent cost of doing nothing. So doing nothing is not an option. So the brilliant question that you ask is, you know, if you’re one of the SMEs or the businesses that have ticked a lot of the boxes and you’re sitting on surplus cash, well, the first thing we do is, we reach for a plan, don’t we? I mean, sitting down with the right people, getting the right people on the bus, working hand in glove with, you know, Atlantic wealth. We’ll work very closely with our clients, accountants, their tax consultants, their advisors, their legal people. And that’s really just to make sure Larissa, that their, you know, decisions are very much aligned and joined up and make complete sense. And there’s no doubt Larissa, I mean, the clients that we’re dealing with, they’re very, very, very busy people. I mean, they’re time poor, they’re often cash rich, and they’re most likely within five to 10 years of potentially selling the business, exiting the business, or making work life optional. So we go back to our why, you know, because we really need to understand what is the right thing to do. So we need to confirm, is this the best use of their capital? Has all of the tax efficiencies been fully explored? What we’re talking about there, and you know this is retirement relief, entrepreneurial relief, are all the short and medium and long term goals fully understood. And you know, in terms of corporate structuring, exit strategy, legal reliefs, making sure that these conversations happen with the right people before a single cent is invested. So yes, we can certainly help manage the money and invest the money and do it the right way, and have the diversification and get good, real returns. And there’s no free lunch. But our real job, Larissa, is the behavioral coach and the strategic thinking partner, helping clients think more about their money. What’s it for? What’s their risk tolerance and capacity? What liquidity is needed? What sort of legacy? What’s the end goal? What does good look like? What in three and five and 10 and 20 years? Because the truth of the matter is, businesses have worked far too hard to let their money drift, and that’s why this is a really, really important topic, and we can’t rush it, you know, can’t be overly simplified to keep it light hearted. I mean, if you want mass, a caller priest, and that’s why having a good accountant like yourselves or a tax advisor and a trusted financial planning practice, and you know, ultimately, it’s about, you know, the power of people and getting the right people to the table and the right plan in place, because it’s not, it’s not so much about urgency, it’s about ownership. You’ve built the business, and now it’s really, really important that the money works just as hard as you

Larissa Feeney 38:49
have a holistic view, um, taking all all aspects into consideration. 360 Niall, I have been hearing your podcast with Gary. I know you’ve, you’ve recently started over the last couple of months or so, and it’s fantastic, I think, for anybody who wants to maybe, you know, listen to a light hearted podcast that educates at the same time. Can you tell us a little bit about it and where our listeners might find it?

Niall Leyden 39:14
Yeah, well, Gary talks. Gary is a household name here in Ireland. He’s number one on Spotify and YouTube and entrepreneurship and business, and it’s around health and wealth and business and family, and you’re quite right. Larissa, I mean, in business and entrepreneurial loneliness and so forth, we’re talking about topics that business people are chatting about every other day. So the feedback has been phenomenal. It’s been extraordinary. We’re getting in wonderful questions. So listeners have an opportunity to pick a topic, and then we just chat about it every Friday. It’s normal, it’s natural, it’s organic, and it’s a little bit of fun. And delighted with the response. So thanks, a million. Larissa,

Larissa Feeney 39:49
thanks. Niall, no, it’s fantastic, and well done to the two of you. And we’ll put a link to it and to the podcast where you talked with the 10 Commandments in the show notes. Can I ask you finally, what’s next? Personally for Niall in terms of your next goal and what’s next for Atlantic wealth management? Where do you see it over the next three to five years going I’ll

Niall Leyden 40:09
I’ll Start with Atlantic wealth management. We have some really, really exciting plans, I mean dream, and someday will be the right one. And this dream has very much become a reality. There are clients and businesses that I could have only dreamt of talking to who have reached out to, like our energy or ethos or mantra, what we’re doing and making a massive difference in people’s lives. So there’ll be more on that in 2025 I would have often shared with clients. We’re keeping this particularly deliberate, particularly focused and personal, and you know, we’re not going to be dealing with hundreds and hundreds of clients. It’s not that we’re going to be overly selective, but we’re going to partner with people that you know have the same values and the same ethos as ourselves. So Connie has joined the team. You know, the team is growing, um, and we’ll have some exciting developments later on the year in that regard. And what’s next for Niall? I’m going to take a couple of days out, probably after 18 months we’re taking a few days with the kids in Brenda just to think and reflect and plan for the second half of the year. But there will be another fitness if you aim at nothing, you’ll hit it every time. So I’ll have that on paper for when we reconvene, hopefully in the quarter three.

Larissa Feeney 41:19
Well, I think that’s a great place to end it. If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time. Niall Leyden, Founder and Managing Director of Atlantic Wealth Management, thank you very much for joining us today.

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USEFUL LINKS TO OTHER PODCASTS MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

The 10 Commandments

Listen to the podcast where Niall Leyden lays out his “10 Commandments” here:

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/148-niall-leyden-the-10-commandments/id1609045593?i=1000679629738

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/embed/episode/7LPhqOfedJoMkSbLrVow5y?utm_source=generator&t=0

Wealth Talks with Garry Kelly and Niall Leyden

Listen to the weekly podcast “Wealth Talks” with Gary Kelly and Niall Leyden

https://garrytalks.podbean.com/