You Have To Learn From Your Mistakes

A key part of the business mindset is being able to spot an opportunity. Sometimes that opportunity comes with risk, but it can have fantastic pay off in the long run.

Today we hear from a business owner whose fishing village upbringing inspired him to pursue a career at sea and led to the creation of his incredibly successful marine dredging business. We hear how he dove in head first, learning from mistakes and asking for help when needed, and how his hard work in the early days has created a better work life for him now.

Our guest saw the opportunity to simplify solutions for his customers and now has 40 men working with him. He is Managing Director and Founder of Foyle and Marine Dredging, Stephen McCormick. Visit LinkedIn or Website for more information.

Transcription

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Stephen McCormick 00:00
There was one company that owed us 1.5 million. And I made a deal, I got 1.1 or 1.2 and everyone thought I was crazy. I said I don’t think them boys is going to be about much longer. And I think I was one of the last people to get the money. And then they went bust after.

VO 00:15
No unicorns, no brands, just hardworking people who built their business from the brand up sharing their experience so others can learn. Presented by Larissa Feeney from Kinore, this is Real Business Conversations.

Larissa Feeney 00:32
Hello. My name is Larissa Feeney, with a very warm welcome today for Stephen McCormick, Managing Director of Foyle and Marine Dredging LTD, Stephen, you’re very welcome.

Stephen McCormick 00:42
Thanks very much. Larissa, nice to be here.

Larissa Feeney 00:46
Stephen, can you please maybe tell us a little bit about yourself? First of all, your background and where you’ve come from.

Stephen McCormick 00:52
Suppose the background was, I grew up greencast, a small fishing village, and part of the community. You’re always kind of involved in us as a young age, growing up, and kind of knew always was under boats and machinery, and couldn’t wait to leave school. And I was before left school, started men nets. Was always in, kind of net men and things, I got involved in the fishing. Went to done the leader, not done the junior shirt, sorry. And Karen Donna left there. I went to the Fisher school and done my engineering course. And then I started on the boat. Since when I started fishing, it was about 19 and left the fishing kind of started. What about to hear? How should it?

Larissa Feeney 01:27
So you’ve been asked it for your whole life, then, and for your whole life, Stephen, you’ve been working in dredging or related activities

Stephen McCormick 01:35
and the marine industry. My whole life. I grew up with a house we could throw the stone on the stone onto water so we could go right beside it, beautiful, beautiful

Larissa Feeney 01:42
parts of the world. So then tell me, how did foil and marine dredging begin?

Stephen McCormick 01:48
This is a funny one. Now I was, as I say, I was fishing, and it was quite young. Was 19, I suppose. I actually started to build the house and I bought a bit of land. I was always mad about excavators and mad about boats. So when I started to build the house, I bought an excavator to clear the site, and that was the start of the machinery, end of it. And then kind of got on that. My grandfather had a bit of an eye gravel put up in the mountain, and I says I’d start exploring that, see would work. And started to develop that there at that age. And then I was around 2008 I suppose the downturn coming, it didn’t really work out. And then I had it, had a couple of machines at that stage. And there was a local lad was developed on a site on down sweeten Ellie’s actually there. He needed Sea Defense, so I started, I priced it to remove the rock and do the sea defense. And that was the taste of the marine suit. Was for the for the foil marine dredging, or the dredging aspect. It wasn’t actually exactly McCormick transport, I think, or something at that stage, or McCormick quarks. And then we just developed on that there. And then actually get on, just done. But the two together, the downturn wasn’t the machinery work, where you can see it quite enough. And then if you put the two together, the Marine aspect, and the excavator, excavators just as dredging sort of so that’s how I get, actually get into the dredging

Larissa Feeney 03:07
end. And you mentioned there that you started whenever you were 19. Was, I mean, did you always work for yourself? Was it always a goal to work for yourself? Or is that just the way it happened? Not

Stephen McCormick 03:17
really. That’s the same funny when I was younger, like, actually my babysitter. He was a net maker. And I suppose I was about six or seven, and I was always out, you’d follow the knitting needles. You’d call them for the nets. And I asked her, What are we just helping him follow needles. And then I start splicing. And then he would show me how to mend. And then I suppose when I was about eight or nine, I used to do the salmon the salmon nets for the fishermen, the local fishermen. I would actually was pumping quite a sheet, no matter how bad or how good it was. That’s what I tried on that after school, when I was primary school, and then on on the secondary school kind of always kind of worked myself. But no, never really thought about it. I liked engineering, and I went there was actually the Veronica, one of my cue sports who’s a big vessel, big factorship. And I started off that there trainee, and ended up getting a relief chiefner sorted, a very good experience on that boat, and a very good team, actually, a lot of good teachers. And then the mechanic in the end of it, now really helped with the dredging sorted across the excavators. And plus, I was always under the even driving the boats, kind of always small boats around home, and having led under but no, never, wouldn’t. Says it was going out to start new cotton. It just, you know, I suppose it just happened, to be honest.

Larissa Feeney 04:25
So you like, you started whenever you were a child, and here you are now operating this business. And how many of a team do you have at the minute? Stephen,

Stephen McCormick 04:38
honestly, I’d say it could be 30 or 40. I’m not sure 30

Larissa Feeney 04:42
or 40. How have you managed to upskill yourself? You know you do, you do your qualification in engineering, but engineering didn’t prepare you to didn’t prepare you to run a business or give you the skills to run a business. How did you manage to upskill yourself over all those years, to be in a position where you can manage that team? Team and the business today. Well,

Stephen McCormick 05:01
to be honest, you were actually a great help too. Look at that’s been sitting up here. The business end of it. Look like I hadn’t a clue. Look I like it was, to be honest, you’re it was yourself we were relying on at the very start, because many times you were going into the house, no going through stuff with us, and looks like everything else you make mistakes. But even in the marina, and we finally roundabout last night, there’s been like the MSO was called in Ireland, it’ll be like for the cars for an MOT. And I remember the first time, I don’t know, I had no clue. And your man says, I can arrest you, and I why you guys? Are you the guards? And they looked at me, and I looked at him, but he knew. I didn’t know. And then they explained it to me. I said, Never heard of it, but that’s it’s, to be honest. But he says to me, says, How could I be so horrible to you when you’ve been so nice to me? And he actually helped me out, he says, And he knew I was the only ever asked me to do. I done it, and I wasn’t trying to duck and dive. I just honestly didn’t know. And I gave me good guidance. And that was my kind of attitude, even with all the clients. Everybody, look, look, nobody knows everything. But I always say you don’t. Once you do it, you have to learn from your mistakes. And that’s kind of come that now the men then too. And what guy I’m always on site, so I’m what the men so the guy never asked them to do anything that I wouldn’t do. So they kind of realized that, yeah,

Larissa Feeney 06:15
so that even that learning from your mistakes or asking for help, knowing that you don’t know everything, and looking for help from those that you know that do is obviously what you did, and that stood here, maybe talk to me a little bit about the customers, because your industry, it’s, it’s the marine industry. It’s a company that dredges, so you’re dredging, uh, you know, off the off the coast, and I’m guessing your customer base must be quite narrow. Stephen, is it? How have you built relationships with them?

Stephen McCormick 06:47
It does. It would be out of a quite narrow so it would same thing, start with one and they like the work ethic. There’s no such thing as a problem on a solution. Worked hammer and tongue to get there. As I always says too, you’re not a customer until you come back the second time. Yes, you always said that. Always says that. And what, like, as always says to 100% to know who’s not home. Like, that’s, you know, and that, that’s why I looked at it too, and I could see an opening like, fair enough. Yes, we started with the dredging, and then the more you run it, the we’d actually offer, uh, there’s not, I don’t think there’s actually too many doing it. We’d offer a full range, right? Like we would do the rock armor. That’s a one stop shop. The Rock armor, the dredging, the demolition, and it actually accompany each other. Normally, you’d have three or four different subways to 10 with and one would be fighting the other thing, he’s holding me up. So I seen an opening on there straight away. Says, No, this was actually one of the jobs and I says, I’m not going to do I just give them the whole lot, or I’m not doing it, because I will only end up fighting. I could see it coming, and that worked. It does. And we were a wee bit more expensive, but in the long run, they realized then we came in ahead of time, and they said they saved a fortune on that there, because then we control it.

Larissa Feeney 07:57
How did you get over that initial barrier of price? And if you were going in, and you were more expensive than your competitors. But you obviously got to, got the job, and then once you were able to prove yourself, they came back for more. But how did you get over that initial barrier in the first place?

Stephen McCormick 08:12
Not to be honest, they sat down, and I suppose they knew me, like, from just the dredging, they knew it, pulled it off, but like, yes, we’re a wee bit more expensive. But I had to, I factored on a small bit of risk into that, because I knew, like, a lot of the boys would actually just buy the work to get on, and then they would know, like, if you have three different companies, they know your aspect depends another boy finishing his, and if he doesn’t finish it, you have a fair idea. No, he’s not going to do that in the time he says it, you’re going to be there standing so knowing that no one understand, knowing the job, I knew that, and I factored and not know, didn’t go metal on it, but you have to cover yourself too, like it’s not a charity as well, and then, but once they seen that, but as I say, Well, we came in ahead of time because we were able to relate. Look, it was all in house, the three kind of divisions. So we sat down every week and we had a meeting. Says, right, where are you? With us? Were you? And then we worked it out, right? We can fine tune that. So we actually the jobs are coming on quicker for the clients. They were some of them, so

Larissa Feeney 09:07
offering the complete package to the client made sense. Um, so it was a win, win for everybody. Then

Stephen McCormick 09:15
it was, it was because I, as I always said, you’ve only one person to roast. Yeah. Do they do that a lot? Stevens? No, they do not come here at the roaring, at the roar, not do the shopping going wrong? Yeah. No, absolutely, but, but it does look, I say, that they understand exactly what I mean. Like, you’ve only one person, right? Well, that’s another, like, yeah, because

Larissa Feeney 09:34
it is a very difficult business. I mean, there’s, you know, all of the normal issues that businesses on land deal with. But as well as that, you you are very vulnerable to the weather, obviously, and the prevailing conditions of the time, so that must affect timelines. And you know how quick you can finish jobs and delays and things like

Stephen McCormick 09:52
that, extremely. And that’s, that’s the thing that people don’t appreciate, and that’s because I always say it’s like a 10 minute job. You won’t do six seminar. No, people just that. That’s the way that it’s all. You’ll do that in 10 minutes. You’ll lose it. No, you won’t. You have to know X, Y and Z. You lose three, if you’re lucky.

Larissa Feeney 10:07
Yeah, Stephen, talk to me about the team and how you have, how, how, first of all, did you manage to build a skilled workforce and keep them at the moment, there’s we’re in an economy with full employment. Businesses are finding it very difficult to attract and retain good people. What is your experience?

Stephen McCormick 10:29
Well, we started off as you know, there was only myself and Mickey, and there was three of us to start off with, just for the first year. So our first six months now, it did grow fairly quick, most of the people that came in was, was actually through the fishing industry, so I knew a lot of boys that have worked with. A lot of them was friends as well, and they’re still here to this day. So that there, as I say, I’m, I’m on the ground with the rats, like they know the guy, go through as much headache as they do, maybe more, because I have to, I have to do run the business too, at the end of the day. And then the company, look at, look, it’s a small company too. Is the and we’re very close knit. We’re all friends. And, like, even the there is a good and there’s a lot of nationalities, like the with Eastern Europeans, with with UK, I wish there’s, there is a lot of nationalities, but we actually all get on. We’re all friends. We get on well. And the company is very like, we’ve been lenient, not lenient, but like, if somebody has to go home for something, that’s not an issue. Looking here, I’m a family man myself, so I understand that, and they just like that. We get it done. Don’t push anybody too hard if they’re not, if we encourage them to better themselves. But we wouldn’t push them, and we wouldn’t dock them. And then the management staff, like the other director, Jason fire, and Jason’s actually on board here. I’m on one of the ships here today, and Jason and Jason’s on board. We get on like we sit down and leave, and we chat as friends. Do the office staff look community. The company just started to grow, but they but the name’s getting out there now and dredging on the street now. We’re kind of fairly well known on Ireland, the new case where and our equipment has really has come on leaps and bounds. And say we were on the freshest fleet of large excavators for dredging and UK and Ireland, and anybody send the machinery sees us, and they appreciate that. And everybody likes thriving the big stuff. And so we’re, we’re starting to get more personnel through that there. So LinkedIn, I have to say, it really helps with us.

Larissa Feeney 12:18
Is it? Tell me about that. How do you use LinkedIn?

Stephen McCormick 12:21
I don’t, I wouldn’t know how, to be honest with you, but there was a keen Conan would be very good at he promoted us through what on LinkedIn, and I think there’s a Facebook page too, I don’t know. No, since we started advertising like Dennis, come on, leaps and bounds. We have working a lot of new customers. Steve, and even though this is a small industry, a lot of people that new customers become. This is they’ve never heard of us. They couldn’t believe it. And it was three, LinkedIn regardless. Isn’t

Larissa Feeney 12:46
that fascinating? And do you use LinkedIn? So you use LinkedIn to network, and you use LinkedIn to attract people as well to work in the business. So for the two, I

Stephen McCormick 12:58
we would advertise our positions in on LinkedIn through it. And we get a lot of we do, we do, we do. Get a lot of

Larissa Feeney 13:03
feedback. And would you use any type of traditional networking in your industry? Do you do any type of events, or do you go to, you know, anything, to network, to try to find your business? Or is it all through word of mouth?

Stephen McCormick 13:15
Word of mouth. Now, it’s a small industry. It’s a big industry, but it’s a small industry. It’s very close knit. Everybody knows everybody, and it’s the same kind of boys all look and there’s not very not many young ones coming in under three at the moment, even on the fashion I hear too chatting the local that it’s funny. Now the young ones are, they’re they’re not interested on it. Why not?

Larissa Feeney 13:35
Why do you think that’s the case? I don’t know. Look, to be honest with you, I

Stephen McCormick 13:39
think it’s, I don’t know. I just now, does now, this is a rough and tough game. Now, to be honest with us, hard work, but look, the rewards is good too. It’s good money. So it doesn’t that like we do. We do good time office, time for time, some of them now other other contracts. Other people have different contracts. Like, we leave it very open. We’re very open as a company. We suit the needs of them, the employee like, because a lot of ones know, we say, well, what suits you? Because the family likes like someone two weeks off, two weeks off, someone months on month off, someone months on two weeks off. Now, to be honest, for management, it’s a nightmare to organize it through this, and it’s actually more costly, but it keeps the labs happy. So you have to in this environment, you have to do it. That’s

Larissa Feeney 14:19
one of the things, though, that you’re doing for morale and to keep morale up and to keep the team happy, and to keep them with you, it’s working.

Stephen McCormick 14:27
And as I say, as a small industry, and the crew we have, like, they’re very good, they’re very loyal, and that’s why look weird, as I always say, it’s a two way street too. Like no liquid. We have to appreciate that and see it.

Larissa Feeney 14:39
And I mean, there’s no, you’re one of those industries, Stephen, where there’s no opportunity for, well, it’s remote working, but it’s remote working, not as we know it. These guys are away from home for stretches of time, and there’s no opportunity to offer that flexibility that you know other businesses can offer,

Stephen McCormick 14:56
no, no. A lot of them like a ticket or leave it. And that’s no, that’s what that’s that. Rotation them, companies are nearly too big, if you know what I mean. We’re in a nice niche size, like we’re not too small, not too big.

Larissa Feeney 15:08
Steven over the course of the last 10 years or so, maybe a bit more, you talked about the recession and the downturn and how that that meant that you had to look at different ways of generation businesses, business over that time. What other unexpected challenges did you have over the last number of years that maybe you didn’t expect? There’s

Stephen McCormick 15:28
enough challenges from some London. I started the company actually on the recession. That’s when I started. And since we started with like, we’re ever quiet, we were never not busy.

Larissa Feeney 15:39
Yeah, it was keeping up with demand was probably your biggest challenge.

Stephen McCormick 15:43
That was, look, the more we grew. And I never really wanted to go to the size where even it was actually customers was pushing us on this. Oh, that’s interesting. It does odd, most definitely, like that was a lot of job sites, not, not too big. Don’t want this. It’s too much. Cobham was very good. And actually, and I said, That’ll cost a lot of money to for the equipment. And they actually stood up the money and they said, we buy it. They bought the equipment for us to push us on this. So

Larissa Feeney 16:08
they wanted you that badly that they were willing to pay for equipment at the beginning to allow you to do the job. Yep. So does that indicate, then, that even cash flow, or, you know, having that upfront investment, I suppose, allowed you to grow over time. No

Stephen McCormick 16:26
cash flows, a funny one that got their way that you have to be very careful with cash flow at as crucial as every business knows, there was factored, and very often made me one eyed. My plant was neither was factored, and there was a repayment schedule on them. Things I definitely did help. It helped us get to get onto the next level. But, uh, cash flows you’re always struggling with, like, if you have a breakdown here, some major breakdown, and you could be down for weeks, and it cost a an iron leg, as you say. And now, to be honest, I suppose one of, one of the things actually turned around was, well, the best thing for us was actually covid Cleave or not, we were, I was too busy to sit back and look at things, and we were owed a lot of money, and we’re very it was certainly hard to get it done. No, there’s one company. I’ve not mentioned names, but the oldest bank was 1.5 million, and I knew covid was common, and I made a deal. I got 1.1 or 1.2 and I really thought it was crazy. I said, I said, looks like the invoice is going to be about much longer. And I had guys won the last piece. One of the last people to get, get the money. And then they went to they went bust after so did not long after it. But if I you made a delivering because the time actually to sit in the house, we wrote a lot of money, not just that job, different projects, and I started writing down, just put pen to paper throughout the years, and a lot of repeat business from a few clients, but there weren’t good payers, and it was cash flow. They were hanging. We couldn’t grow because of them. So that’s when we kind of promoted ourselves through LinkedIn, different things. And I said, right, we’re going to have to get new, new main contractors. And that’s we’ve done. And we were old when I was able to give me time to chase we got all the money and wax. We did the coffers up quite, quite well. Everything was all done. We’re on projects that we’re standing and we’re getting, we’re getting a few pounds from that there. And more than all, it was headspace, food was to re to revalue it, everything. And we changed. This is right, we wrote down a few of the companies, which is right. We have to target these people. They’re not coming to us. They don’t know us. They have to. And we did, and it actually helped in it. And we’re still doing projects with some of them today, swear. And we still get older ones from from ones we actually approach to over covid,

Larissa Feeney 18:27
fascinating. Okay, and you’re still working with them. We

Stephen McCormick 18:30
are, because other ones were just, they were drip feeding you, and they had you because they always held money on you, so you always had to go back. But when covid, we got all the money off them, was now knocking back. And

Larissa Feeney 18:44
do you think if covid Never happened, would you have ever have identified that, or had the headspace to think about it, to deeply think about it?

Stephen McCormick 18:52
No, do you know what? Honestly, I wouldn’t know, because two to three months I could see it myself, and it was, it was just great to get the head clear. To be honest, it was like it was, say, a buzzy phone, and

Larissa Feeney 19:04
to maintain those customer relationships. Now, how do you do that? How do you make sure that no another dredging company doesn’t come in and undercut you in some way and take your customers well,

Stephen McCormick 19:15
as I said, we started to say that gear, equipment’s Very good. Now, like we started our equipment was scrap, where it was like But we’re always known to get the job done. We could because I say my background is mechanical, and there’s a there’s there’s, there’s my brother, Michael Lawrence and Jason fire and Kevin Norris is good. Few of us here is very mechanical, so we’re keep able to keep things going. But now the fact that until we actually spent money. We actually made money, if you know what I mean, it was actually until we bought one of our new machines. We noticed the duffers. Within months, we were losing an average two to three times two to three days a week because of breakdowns. But the new equipment were working seven days a week, full production. So you started to see you started to see things coming on better then. So you didn’t know what. And then the clients seem they always knew the method was there, the wall was there to get the job done, and then with good equipment. Now, as I always say, I’m not the cheapest, but I’m definitely not the dearest, and I think everything else, if you want to go for the cheap price, that’s grand. And look, we’ll come back and we’ll clean it up whenever we have to. That’s actually happened quite a few times. We offer a good, good, fair price. I hack the price is fair to be I could client sees that too, and that’s Look, hence they come back. It’s all like our business, 80 percenters, repeat business showed us.

Larissa Feeney 20:31
And it’s not all about price. So Stephen, is it? No, it’s not look, to be honest.

Stephen McCormick 20:35
Look, look, there’s a lot of the directors and owners would just love the phone to me and anytime 24/7 and they know that looking at, if they have an issue, we’ll sort it out. And you don’t get too many phone calls to get but there’s a good relationship with them. And they know we’re very transparent, not just myself, the whole team, like everybody else. And look, to be honest, 90% of the places I go, people don’t even know I own the company. They think I’m just a worker. And that’s that’s why I like it. I don’t want look at. That’s where it’s easier for me showing us.

Larissa Feeney 21:02
And I want to talk to you a little bit about the equipment, because you told us there how you invest in equipment. And I do remember, I’ve known you for a long time, and I remember whenever you started, and I remember the repairs and maintenance costs that you would have incurred at that time. And there was, there was always a lot going on, because the equipment was needed to be maintained, and it was older equipment. So then you invested. Now, a question that that people who are listening are going to have is, how did you pay for that equipment? Because it’s a big investment, and it was probably a risk, I would think, for you, even though it’s obviously paid off. So how did you manage to fund it?

Stephen McCormick 21:43
Well, the start block, to be honest, as you know, we were buying, we’re always buying second hand gear, because the banks wouldn’t, wouldn’t, they wouldn’t speak this, the HP crowds wouldn’t talk just and then eventually we’ve got a TBF. We got a break from them. They give us a new machine. So they’ll say taxi finance. And then, as I say, things started. The cash did actually start to roll on, and we with less breakdowns, so overheads were going down. The banks then actually started to speak this in. And now they do speak to us about, to be honest, they do look it’s actually gone the opposite. They love you. Now I’m actually not taking the recalls, but at the start, hey, look, it’s his other way about the world. And look, there was, there was, to be honest, you, one of the biggest was there was a friend of mine, which was in this industry. He took a risk, a punt on me, sweetheart, and I went to him a business plan. And it was a private individual that gave me my biggest break. There’s no two ways about it. Now, look, I didn’t get it for now, I paid a lot more than what I paid the bank answer, but it was worse. It was so

Larissa Feeney 22:46
that was almost like, I suppose, if it happened today, you will call him like an angel investor or something. He just, he trusted you, he backed you as a person, yeah, and believed in you, and believed in the business and and that obviously worked out really well for everybody I

Stephen McCormick 23:01
did, because I remember, I remember speaking now, and it was around this time of year, so it was and I went down to meet him, and I came down with all the accounts that I asked three years accounts were sitting having a cup of coffee. And I says, If you coach me, I just do it. And I suck away with everybody. Look whatever way you want and not. And I says, right. He says, Can you pay for it? I says, you know, I can. I said, Look, I worked the man for years. And he says, right. What

Larissa Feeney 23:28
was, Wow, just like that.

Stephen McCormick 23:31
I a wee bit more to it, but basically I was, I don’t look at it. Was very, very straightforward, brilliant,

Larissa Feeney 23:37
just in terms of you then as an individual, so your confidence in making the decisions for the business over the years, you must have grown, and you have grown in confidence, because I’ve known you a long time, and I can see that, how did you grow your confidence in knowing that you were making the right decisions, or having the faith that you were making the right decisions for the business?

Stephen McCormick 24:01
Sorry, you have to take a leap of faith too. Like you have to know, you have to earn the side of caution. The guy wouldn’t be I do sit down and look, to be honest with you, what I want, a lot of big decisions, like I would get a pen, paper, pros and cons, write it down. And as simple as that, there and then. Now, there’s other ones. You have to throw caution to the one too. Now, you know, look, as I say, the main, the main element, is very risky, but a good team around me, and you know what they you know their capabilities. I know my capabilities. I know the machineries capabilities. And we would push it. Never, never push it 100% but you have, sometimes you have to push it 95 nothing called an answer. But yeah,

Larissa Feeney 24:37
no, no, it’s a good answer. No, it’s a great answer. And whenever you, you know, write down the pros and cons. Do you you have other people in the business there, there with you that you would discuss it with and get their take on it. Would you and and kind of come to a collaborative decision on on the way forward,

Stephen McCormick 24:56
I would, I would look yes, and sometimes the green, sometimes. Is adopt, and sometimes I plow on. And luckily enough, it works out. Now, if they’re very strongly against, you can look at I have to be realistic too, and you have to sometimes you can get too much. I’m personally involved in it, and you have to sit back and look at it as you know, my wife, too is involved. We would discuss it as well. And Kieran is very like she she’s always for me to push it on, but if she doesn’t feel as good, I would actually want to listen, because she’s not there, right?

Larissa Feeney 25:30
Are you good at delegating then to the team, you mentioned that you like to be there, and we’ve seen you there today. Are you good at delegating tasks, or would you prefer to do them yourself?

Stephen McCormick 25:39
Yeah, if I’m there, like, look, it’s very like, career, naturally, it comes to me, and it’s very hard for me to pass over to somebody else. Know what I’m here. But yes, I can delegate. I can walk away from it, and I’m 100% happy with the boys, what they do and even questions. But when I’m on site, I like, it’s very hard to be the boss and take orders from somewhere else, if you know what I mean. Like, that’s but yes, and we do look funny, we’re just there on and I says, We’ll do this here. And one of the Jason says, No, we’re not. She’s, you know what? You’re right, family, that’s where, what was, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, excellent. Like that, that’s wrong. You can’t look at my word is not as I always say, Everybody, everybody has an opinion. Like, and I’d always listen to everybody, like, if you get 10 cents off, everybody doesn’t belong to you have a pound like, and

Larissa Feeney 26:26
just on that point, then you know, if you’re to look back over the last number of years, I know you’ve worked with us, and has there been any other external support that has helped you manage the business, that you’ve received, that you would, that you felt that the business has benefited from i There definitely

Stephen McCormick 26:43
is, like, Look yourselves, been one of the biggest involvement in it. And then Mark Johnson was actually, it was there for a short period of time, but it was a crucial time. It was actually when the company was kind of grown. So it wasn’t the big, first big step. And there was a lot of, lot of advice was very valuable. We were happy with what he done. And then there was other companies that even went. We pushed on for the ESO, so we did for the for the three, for the environmental health and safety and equipment that’s big standing likes for us. And no, there’s, there’s, there’s different ones that look even meeting new people all the time and understood draws affect you and not affects. It guides you and steers you. It’s like what they’re doing that a wee bit different. Maybe we could adopt from that

Larissa Feeney 27:26
there, yeah, learning from others you haven’t benefited or have you in any way, or maybe you have from government support, like enterprise Ireland or local enterprise office, not,

Stephen McCormick 27:36
hey, look, to be honest, not what we needed it. That’s one thing I have to say, is very, very unfair. What’s, what’s how you’re suffering in general, but it’s a computer says no. Like, I remember when I went on to get my mortgage, like it was a bank man I was talking to, and he was speaking to the person like I was 1819, years of age, and I got, I got a mortgage for a house if I went on now, even, even though what’s what I own the company, I dare say I wouldn’t get one, because I don’t think, I don’t take big wages out of the company. I’m not no take a modest wage and and I don’t think we get it now. That’s the same with like, even, even, therefore we were trying, like I if we want, if the banks would have worked, was at an early stage, would have been enough. We would have been 1015, years ahead of ourselves. But they didn’t. And that’s not that’s not fair, even funny we did last year with it, one of them grants Academy, which one it was? But 10 years too late.

Larissa Feeney 28:28
So you feel that the lack of support, well, I suppose from from government agencies, that lack of support that you felt has slowed down your growth, and certainly the lack of support, or the late entry of the banks in terms of their support to the business, also slowed down growth.

Stephen McCormick 28:48
The locker mirrors are too cautious. Yes, you have to understand, you have to be cautious. But look at that as I say, the man that give me the brick, he weighed up his options to use, but no one he knew it was a good punt. The banks wouldn’t do it. And the gut grant we got last year only for we had the money on the cards. You wouldn’t have got it because you had the front but you had to buy everything up front, and then you had to wait six months till you got a return back at it was only we could afford it. But for a company, or a company starting up that needs that their boost, it would cut their legs. Yeah.

Larissa Feeney 29:16
It just emphasizes the importance of that those investors in in indigenous businesses early on in the journey, because, as you rightly say, the banks are too cautious. They can’t take the risk, or they won’t take the risk. So there’s a place for those more that are more in favor of taking risks, I suppose, and who are less cautious to to back a business like yours. And it pays off, you know, and that’s evident from from the growth of you’ve seen, talk to me about the last 15 years in business, the changes that you’ve seen, not in not just in your business, Stephen, but in business in general. How do you think it is today for somebody starting a business? Do you think it’s the same as it was for you? Is. It harder? Is it easier? Harder? Harder?

Stephen McCormick 30:02
God, love coming on. This really, I know. Look, the paperwork, look health and safety, yes, but the problem was, health and safety’s Gone, gone crazy. It has. It’s encouraging people not, not nobody moves, nobody will get hurt. But that’s the way it is, and it’s, it’s just common sense has totally gone out. And I’ve seen it actually gone the way that it’s dangerous, that it’s too safe, because it didn’t say in the method statement that you could do that. So like, you can’t do that, but you have to move out of the road that’s going to fall on you. But the method says I have to stay here. But no, if you stay in there, that will land on you. It’s just It took the young people that does coming on, whatever we bet you get coming on, they cannot think, they don’t have to think that same black and white film. But it’s two, it’s no it’s crippling, sort of, and then for like, for our end of it, like, like the job, now it’s 5050 between paperwork and the job. So it was like when we were starting off, it would have been 10% paperwork and 90% job. Now it’s just 5050 so

Larissa Feeney 30:58
that’s a massive change. We even if you’re taking an apprentice. Now, do you even have an opportunity to, you know, to show them on the job training in any way, or do they have to split their time across theory and practical? You never would have

Stephen McCormick 31:12
had that look worse, though we we’d love to see young people coming on the industry, and we encourage it like we have. Actually look you might go through 10, and you might get one that that would stay, you know what? You know where you keep and there is actually influencers just started there recently. And we put them through as, like the safe pass, and then the STCW, which is for the Marine, like sea survival, first aid, firefighting and all that there. So like we are investing in them and that now fair enough, it comes out, and they would shadow we would put them off somebody’s experience, and they would shadow them. Do you know what I mean, for six months or whatever, and then you start giving them wee bit more. Yeah, like, we under appreciate it, because we’re that used to it. But as I always say, like, rule of thumb is one hand for yourself and one hand for the boat. And I always say, effing doubt, don’t do it. That’s a common ask somebody because, like, a assumption, as do not think that’s just not very we would be like we will be very healthy and safely conscious, cautious. But it just comes naturally. Because, look, we know you don’t get second chances in the water shield. Yeah, it’s

Larissa Feeney 32:14
instinctive whenever you’ve been around it your whole life. Last few questions now, Steven, I’m not going to keep you too much longer you’ve been very good with your time. What was the most important lesson that you’ve learned over your years as a business owner? Can you think of something I would

Stephen McCormick 32:30
be very I think people at face value, and a lot of times I could kick Nash over, which is, it’s horrible to say I still won’t do it to a certain degree, because I’m a great believer on a spot in a handshake, no, you trust and to trust. And I think you need that nothing. And I think that the ones that keep repeat business, I think they see that, and they know that they don’t have like, there’s many times I’d be wrong, and I saw if I’m in agreement wrong, and I suffer over it financially, I just like to because I said, Well, that’s so be it. That’s my problem. I agreed to it, and that’s it, and trust, but I think he stole it. Unfortunately, it has gone out of the out of the industry, but I think it’d be nice to keep it on, but it does get out of it, but maybe I trust everyone. No,

Larissa Feeney 33:13
I think it’s a good trait. I think it’s a good trait to trust the challenges, I suppose, not to make all of your decision based on trust. That’s That’s it. But trust in your gut plays a big part of it, doesn’t

Stephen McCormick 33:25
it? It does. And that’s where the team comes on to know, like, no, they have to know that. There is no way. I would say, Jesus, you know what trust having but yes, commercially, you have to. You have to be protected too. Because at the end of the day, I’m just running the company, it’s not know what I mean, that’s what. And that’s what I always say, like, it’s not fair enough. Yes, I own it, but it’s not. I’m robbing the company that has to be run, right? Or it’s not. It’s not a it’s not a playground.

Larissa Feeney 33:48
Yeah, exactly. You’re a custodian, and it’ll be passed on to to whoever. It’s not just here for you, which is a great way to look at it. When did you feel this is, this is a questionnaire. You’re going to laugh at it, right? But what moment made you feel like you made us that you were successful in the business?

Stephen McCormick 34:05
Do you know what actually, the other day, actually got a bit of a I was dealing with a big, big international company, and I was dealing with somebody well up in one of the senior management, and there was three or four of us there, and I would take a phone call. They actually asked. He said, What’s story with foil a marine like No, who owns it or what? So he owns it. I didn’t know this conversation took place. And then the one of the boys tell me, after I started to laugh, because I was actually my work. He was rotten. I was on depression. We’re going up to a meeting. Sure, it was a fairly substantial meeting, and I just went down. But anyway, come out and I go teasing. Then I left. I go, Holy when you and this is the cause. There’s one project wrong here. I’m just on this one at the moment. I go, cheaper. When you look around now, you can see, I can see what he’s saying. I think it’s, it’s, that’s a 20 small percentage. It’s here. But there’s. It’s, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of money tied to the key wall here. And

Larissa Feeney 35:03
there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of substance behind the business. So the fact that you know he didn’t identify you as the owners, because he didn’t expect you to be there, I suppose, or to to be involved as much in the in the work as as you are, it’s, it’s fantastic that you do that. What are your plans, Stephen, to further grow the business over the coming years,

Stephen McCormick 35:23
I would say growth will be slow, common. We’re not. I don’t, I don’t want to go the size we are is a nice size. It’s a nice it’s not I can manage it. We can all, sorry, we can all manage it. As I drawn 100% of no one’s not like I know my I know myself. I could get a heap of equipment and take on a heap of work. And all I would have as just HEPA headaches and no better off. I’d like to just keep, keep the equipment good and upgraded, and we’re comfortable with we are turnovers. Actually, it is very good, but the profit margins good. And I think we went down a bagger. I would just dilute the tools and, uh, as I say, it’s, I can go home for a week now. I couldn’t, you know me years ago. Couldn’t do is actually, when the share member may tell them were born, it was on the boat half an hour later, going to work. So yeah, but now you can relax about and that’s but if it was any bigger, no, I would. I would definitely people be very careful that there’s a hap they can only 20 years now, be retired. You know what I mean, the goodness has gone out of everything like so you have to enjoy yourself too.

Larissa Feeney 36:24
Steven, final question, you be glad to know what is the one piece of advice you would give to small businesses looking to grow,

Stephen McCormick 36:30
put on the time, put on the effort. It is hard. It is hard at the start. But if you, if you’re confident and you can see it, go first. But remember, like, if your family too, you have to there is a happy medium. But I know it’s contradicts itself, but be careful of that too. Like it’s it’s once, that time’s gone, it’s gone. It’s

Larissa Feeney 36:49
very hard, isn’t it, to get that balance right, because the work has to go in, especially in the early years of the business. And you and I know a lot, a lot of businesses, and I can’t think of one that hasn’t come with the sacrifice of time in the early years. So it’s difficult to get that balance.

Stephen McCormick 37:04
It does knock on us to say, later on, later on, you get it back. Then that’s, I suppose that’s the other way looking on, yeah,

Larissa Feeney 37:10
yeah. Well, there is that saying, isn’t there? Entrepreneurs, work how others won’t to live how others can’t. Stephen, thank you very much. Really appreciate your time today, and I know that everyone who’s going to be listening to the podcast will get a lot out of it. So thank you very much.

Stephen McCormick 37:29
No bother Larissa, thanks very much, now appreciate it too.

VO 37:32
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